My facial expression is getting me into trouble at work.

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bookworm360
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26 Jun 2015, 9:13 am

Your situation sucks. I've had similar problems, at home, at school, and at work. When I was a kid my dad and I would get into fights because he would accuse me of looking at him like I wanted to murder him, when I was generally just tuning him out most of the time.

Even my friends during college would put me in a box and describe me as super negative, even though I didn't consider myself that way. If anything I'm a hedonist that tries to enjoy most of my experiences, but still I got labeled stoic for some reason.

Eventually I just trained myself to smile whenever I notice people around me, but even that was a problem because my natural smile seems a little like a smirk, so instead of people leaving me alone or not being bothered by me instead I'd keep getting asked what I was thinking about and people thought I was keeping something from them when I'd say nothing in particular. I finally figured out I need to open my lips and show my teeth when I smile (which actually came about from reading an article on why dogs get mixed signals when people smile at them because showing teeth to a dog is a sign of aggression)--I don't know why but it seems to make it appear more genuine (or maybe vapid) and people leave me the hell alone.

I think one part of the problem for me was that I didn't have a diagnosis. It's impossible to know for sure but I think if I could have gone it's not personal, my brain just works differently and I don't express emotions the same way, it would have been easier/more accepted/better understood.

In your situation, if you want to protect yourself and your job you kind of have to choose whether you disclose or not, because you aren't going to change (at least not quickly) as you aren't aware that what you are doing is off-putting you're just being natural and aren't fully aware of how others perceive you. However, if your boss doesn't know you're on the spectrum it can come off as seeming intentionally standoffish/hostile and their job is to try and make things run smoothly which a standoffish/hostile team member makes difficult. If your boss knows, you can go to them and be like: 'I understand this is an issue, but I'm not really aware of what it is that I'm doing. I'm willing to try and adjust, but when it happens I need to be told, because I don't know what specific things I'm doing wrong and I'm not likely going to pick up on the non-verbal signals when someone else is put-off.' If the boss knows and still isn't willing to work with you, hey you have grounds to go to HR or possibly hire a lawyer and sue them for creating a hostile work environment for you.

You do need to take some sort of action if you want to protect your job though. If you don't want to disclose or already have and your boss is just a jackass then you should start getting your resume in order and circling help wanted ads.



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26 Jun 2015, 2:15 pm

OliveOilMom wrote:
olympiadis wrote:
OliveOilMom wrote:
Yes, you can get somewhere with them. You are also expecting them to read your mind and understand that you don't know what they mean. You have to explain to them that you really don't understand what they mean and tell them they need to give you examples so you can work on it. They can't understand that we don't understand them. We can't understand that they think everybody else understands them. It's the same thing, just packaged differently.


Your logic is flawed. It's not the same situation at all.
The OP already asked verbally for specifics.

The boss has expressed that they don't like how the OP looks, their tone of voice, their perceived attitude, and has shown no serious intent to help the OP understand and make corrections.
More likely the NT will only become more frustrated, or even infuriated, if they are asked to explain themselves logically.
Communicating information in a specific manner is not the same thing as speaking in vagaries.
I've been through this too many times before. The NT will refuse or avoid any logical approach to the problem because they have already made up their minds about the entire situation and see their role as just to sit back and see if you fix their perceived problem.


I've been through it for 51 years myself and while at first they don't give you the answer that you want because they don't understand what you mean, but when you explain that you really don't understand and need examples, then most people will comply.

You also seem to embody every single characteristic you want to accuse NT's of having. Being judgmental, assumptions, not willing to give anyone a chance, etc.

People are people, NT's or AS. The only difference between us is that we have AS and they don't. It really is something that can be discussed. Of course thats assuming you approach others in a courteous way and aren't a super douche to them when they tell you the first time. If someone said "Forget it, you won't help me!" and stomps off in some self righteous huff, then of course nobody is going to help him. I've had people be as*holes to me when I've explained and asked for examples, but usually they have complied. Then again, I was nice and understanding about it to them, so maybe that was why.

Either way, if the OP asks again, nicely, and explains that he really doesn't understand what his boss means and asks for examples so he can fix the problems, he will probably get what he asks for.

I see merit in both your arguments. I think it can do good to play the white man when in that situation where your critic fails to give specifics on request, but it could be a naive and costly mistake to completely assume that your critic is necessarily your friend and on your side. That's why I say "play" the white man. At its best it can be a magic bullet - if your critic is in any way reasonable and genuine, then your move is likely to bring out their good side, and if they're just trying to grind you down, then your move is going to make it rather more difficult for them. I think the main thing is to be aware that there are critics who can be reached and critics who can't.

The most memorable experience I had with this kind of thing was with a critic who seems to have been strongly on the "unreachable" end of the spectrum. He was our head of department. Having sent for me out of the blue and given me some vague but serious criticism about my performance, I asked him to name his source (after all, he had no personal experience of my working performance), and to give me the details of exactly what I was doing wrong. All he could say was "no, you're paranoid." He then denied that he was criticising me at all, and I said that I must have misheard him before. He let me go away with the idea that he'd not criticised me at all. Then my supervisor showed me the email he'd sent her, in which he'd said that he'd heard I was "unenthusiastic" and "unwilling" (in other words, lazy) in an area of work my supervisor had no knowledge of. She replied asking him for the details so she could deal with the matter appropriately. Later she told me that he'd backed down. Believe it or not, a couple of years later a new HOD tried exactly the same thing. Nobody wanted to explain the details of what I was supposed to have done wrong, or to reveal the source of the criticism. I bucked their "initiative" by angrily denying it, and to my surprise, that worked.

I'll never know for sure what led them to do these things, but I strongly believe the management was corrupt and unreachable, and sometimes I think it's much simpler and more expedient to just accept that there's a war going on.



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26 Jun 2015, 3:17 pm

I "put on my face" for work...to smile and be more expressive towards people in my face. It's tiresome, but it's the path of least resistance. When the job is done, I go back to normal and just hope I don't run into any of the same people outside of work.

People will automatically project emotions on to a blank, neutral face - typically they will project how THEY feel about being around you...so if they feel uncomfortable, they will imagine that your face is doing something horrible to make them feel that way. If you can smile just often enough to put them at ease, they will begin to project on you that you are smiling and being nice to them, even when you're not. It's kind of funny how it works that way.



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27 Jun 2015, 12:39 am

OliveOilMom wrote:
olympiadis wrote:
Quit. There's no way to win this one.
You can't wake the dead.


So if he's having this problem at work, and more than one person say so, you don't think he's having it anywhere else?

Finding out something is "off" about ourselves and having the willingness to change it is how we go about succeeding in life. If I had never found out or listened to people who told me things were "off" about me and never worked on those things and others then I'd be living alone with a bunch of cats and afraid of people. Hell no.


I took your advice they just got more mad- wouldn't give me any examples... they just kept saying "its little things" and not tell me what the little things were. I think I'm going to quit.



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27 Jun 2015, 12:47 am

dianthus wrote:
I "put on my face" for work...to smile and be more expressive towards people in my face. It's tiresome, but it's the path of least resistance. When the job is done, I go back to normal and just hope I don't run into any of the same people outside of work.

People will automatically project emotions on to a blank, neutral face - typically they will project how THEY feel about being around you...so if they feel uncomfortable, they will imagine that your face is doing something horrible to make them feel that way. If you can smile just often enough to put them at ease, they will begin to project on you that you are smiling and being nice to them, even when you're not. It's kind of funny how it works that way.


I'm honestly not sure how to smile. Do I just walk around smiling? Isn't that weird? My face is very naturally blank, I don't think I have ever smiled and it felt natural. Should I force a smile at people even though it will look "fake"? I tried smiling in class once and some girls walked up to me and ask me why I was smiling the whole class :oops: oops.



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27 Jun 2015, 12:31 pm

hollowmoon wrote:
dianthus wrote:
I "put on my face" for work...to smile and be more expressive towards people in my face. It's tiresome, but it's the path of least resistance. When the job is done, I go back to normal and just hope I don't run into any of the same people outside of work.

People will automatically project emotions on to a blank, neutral face - typically they will project how THEY feel about being around you...so if they feel uncomfortable, they will imagine that your face is doing something horrible to make them feel that way. If you can smile just often enough to put them at ease, they will begin to project on you that you are smiling and being nice to them, even when you're not. It's kind of funny how it works that way.


I'm honestly not sure how to smile. Do I just walk around smiling? Isn't that weird? My face is very naturally blank, I don't think I have ever smiled and it felt natural. Should I force a smile at people even though it will look "fake"? I tried smiling in class once and some girls walked up to me and ask me why I was smiling the whole class :oops: oops.

I can't force a smile either, it just looks weird if I try. Only way I've ever managed it is to try and think of something funny and hope I happen to smile naturally.



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27 Jun 2015, 10:43 pm

hollowmoon wrote:
I'm honestly not sure how to smile. Do I just walk around smiling? Isn't that weird? My face is very naturally blank, I don't think I have ever smiled and it felt natural. Should I force a smile at people even though it will look "fake"? I tried smiling in class once and some girls walked up to me and ask me why I was smiling the whole class :oops: oops.


I used to rarely smile, and people would constantly tell me to smile. Then in my 20s I started smiling more so I wouldn't have to hear that, and people would ask why I was smiling all the time. You can't win.

I try to just smile briefly when I first encounter someone, at least...it seems like it makes people uncomfortable if I don't and they start asking what's wrong.



bookworm360
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28 Jun 2015, 12:46 am

One thing I do is when I initially notice someone, I'll quickly look in/near their eyes, flash a smile (slightly showing teeth) and then look away, it seems to do the trick.



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28 Jun 2015, 10:01 am

I have no work experience, but anyway...
Tell your boss that you are simply a serious, no-nonsense, industrious worker who doesn't like to smile or chit-chat and just wants to get things done.

People often ask me if I'm upset or sad, when in fact I am in a neutral mood and I'm wearing my pokerface.


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28 Jun 2015, 10:14 am

Cockroach96 wrote:
Tell your boss that you are simply a serious, no-nonsense, industrious worker who doesn't like to smile or chit-chat and just wants to get things done.


Good idea.

In theory, as long as you are doing your job, it really shouldn't matter what kind of look you have on your face...but if you work with/under people who are insecure, they will look for the least little thing to get upset about.



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28 Jun 2015, 10:43 am

Cockroach96 wrote:
I have no work experience, but anyway...
Tell your boss that you are simply a serious, no-nonsense, industrious worker who doesn't like to smile or chit-chat and just wants to get things done.


I've heard plenty of stories of people who just don't want to deal with certain workers for no fault of the worker and if what Cockroach96 said doesn't work, then your boss is just a jerk and the only thing I can think to be done is claim wrongful termination if you get fired :/ Because you've tried everything else to fix the perceived, vague problem. It isn't on you anymore, I think. People will be jerks.

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28 Jun 2015, 10:53 am

kamiyu910 wrote:
Cockroach96 wrote:
I have no work experience, but anyway...
Tell your boss that you are simply a serious, no-nonsense, industrious worker who doesn't like to smile or chit-chat and just wants to get things done.


I've heard plenty of stories of people who just don't want to deal with certain workers for no fault of the worker and if what Cockroach96 said doesn't work, then your boss is just a jerk and the only thing I can think to be done is claim wrongful termination if you get fired :/ Because you've tried everything else to fix the perceived, vague problem. It isn't on you anymore, I think. People will be jerks.

Like this: Speaking up for those who can't


But would not fitting in and getting along with the other staff actually be wrongful termination? I don't know workplace law so I don't know. If people are upset about his expressions and he explains why he has them to them and makes an effort to try to be friendly by speaking to them and talking despite his expressions and if his expression is still making them uncomfortable and they fire him about that, then it is wrongful in my opinion. If the conversations about how he's getting along are vague and he doesn't explain why he's got the expression and why he's having trouble understanding about it and how to fix it, and about his AS, and he just keeps quiet and hopes it goes away and then they fire him without knowing everything, I don't see how that is wrongful. He had a chance to explain but he didn't, the boss didn't know why he didn't or that he might be having trouble doing it. All everybody knows is that he looks and seems disgruntled and it's making people nervous. With the workplace violence nowdays, that seems cut and dried. It would be wrong to fire him because they don't know everything, but they don't know they don't know it, so they did something wrong without meaning to. I wouldn't think that's wrongful termination.

I think the intent and the knowledge of whats going on behind the issue is the main thing. Are they just douchebags or do they really get nervous about him? Do they just not like people who might be somewhat different or are they worried he's planning an after lunch shooting spree? That is the issue, no matter what his intent is, it's the person doing the firing's intent that counts.


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28 Jun 2015, 11:17 am

OliveOilMom wrote:
kamiyu910 wrote:
Cockroach96 wrote:
I have no work experience, but anyway...
Tell your boss that you are simply a serious, no-nonsense, industrious worker who doesn't like to smile or chit-chat and just wants to get things done.


I've heard plenty of stories of people who just don't want to deal with certain workers for no fault of the worker and if what Cockroach96 said doesn't work, then your boss is just a jerk and the only thing I can think to be done is claim wrongful termination if you get fired :/ Because you've tried everything else to fix the perceived, vague problem. It isn't on you anymore, I think. People will be jerks.

Like this: Speaking up for those who can't


But would not fitting in and getting along with the other staff actually be wrongful termination? I don't know workplace law so I don't know. If people are upset about his expressions and he explains why he has them to them and makes an effort to try to be friendly by speaking to them and talking despite his expressions and if his expression is still making them uncomfortable and they fire him about that, then it is wrongful in my opinion. If the conversations about how he's getting along are vague and he doesn't explain why he's got the expression and why he's having trouble understanding about it and how to fix it, and about his AS, and he just keeps quiet and hopes it goes away and then they fire him without knowing everything, I don't see how that is wrongful. He had a chance to explain but he didn't, the boss didn't know why he didn't or that he might be having trouble doing it. All everybody knows is that he looks and seems disgruntled and it's making people nervous. With the workplace violence nowdays, that seems cut and dried. It would be wrong to fire him because they don't know everything, but they don't know they don't know it, so they did something wrong without meaning to. I wouldn't think that's wrongful termination.

I think the intent and the knowledge of whats going on behind the issue is the main thing. Are they just douchebags or do they really get nervous about him? Do they just not like people who might be somewhat different or are they worried he's planning an after lunch shooting spree? That is the issue, no matter what his intent is, it's the person doing the firing's intent that counts.


Hollowmoon said they tried to find out more, but that it made it worse. They might be afraid of telling everyone about being on the spectrum, because some people have been fired for that. One can pursue the wrongful termination but it doesn't always work even if you've tried everything to fix the situation. I wish every story had a just ending, but sadly, this world is not very just when it comes to people who are not "normal." We can try our hardest to fit in, to appease people, and it won't do any good because our mere existence is enough to put some people off.
Sorry I'm a bit cynical, I'm just so tired of trying to appease everyone and getting trampled anyway... It was too much effort and I'm much happier not trying to bend over backwards for jerks who don't like who I really am.


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28 Jun 2015, 11:25 am

It depends on the laws where you live, but as far as I know, in most (if not all?) US states there's no way to file for wrongful termination. If it's a large company, you might be able to appeal to HR or higher management to have your job reinstated. Or if a person is fired for illegal reasons, like discrimination or retaliation, they can file complaints with the relevant agencies and fight it legally. For most workers it's not worth it to fight for a job they were fired from unfairly, it's better to just move on to something else. Usually it's best to look for another job and quit before you get fired. Unless you want to draw unemployment.



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28 Jun 2015, 11:55 am

kamiyu910 wrote:
OliveOilMom wrote:
kamiyu910 wrote:
Cockroach96 wrote:
I have no work experience, but anyway...
Tell your boss that you are simply a serious, no-nonsense, industrious worker who doesn't like to smile or chit-chat and just wants to get things done.


I've heard plenty of stories of people who just don't want to deal with certain workers for no fault of the worker and if what Cockroach96 said doesn't work, then your boss is just a jerk and the only thing I can think to be done is claim wrongful termination if you get fired :/ Because you've tried everything else to fix the perceived, vague problem. It isn't on you anymore, I think. People will be jerks.

Like this: Speaking up for those who can't


But would not fitting in and getting along with the other staff actually be wrongful termination? I don't know workplace law so I don't know. If people are upset about his expressions and he explains why he has them to them and makes an effort to try to be friendly by speaking to them and talking despite his expressions and if his expression is still making them uncomfortable and they fire him about that, then it is wrongful in my opinion. If the conversations about how he's getting along are vague and he doesn't explain why he's got the expression and why he's having trouble understanding about it and how to fix it, and about his AS, and he just keeps quiet and hopes it goes away and then they fire him without knowing everything, I don't see how that is wrongful. He had a chance to explain but he didn't, the boss didn't know why he didn't or that he might be having trouble doing it. All everybody knows is that he looks and seems disgruntled and it's making people nervous. With the workplace violence nowdays, that seems cut and dried. It would be wrong to fire him because they don't know everything, but they don't know they don't know it, so they did something wrong without meaning to. I wouldn't think that's wrongful termination.

I think the intent and the knowledge of whats going on behind the issue is the main thing. Are they just douchebags or do they really get nervous about him? Do they just not like people who might be somewhat different or are they worried he's planning an after lunch shooting spree? That is the issue, no matter what his intent is, it's the person doing the firing's intent that counts.


Hollowmoon said they tried to find out more, but that it made it worse. They might be afraid of telling everyone about being on the spectrum, because some people have been fired for that. One can pursue the wrongful termination but it doesn't always work even if you've tried everything to fix the situation. I wish every story had a just ending, but sadly, this world is not very just when it comes to people who are not "normal." We can try our hardest to fit in, to appease people, and it won't do any good because our mere existence is enough to put some people off.
Sorry I'm a bit cynical, I'm just so tired of trying to appease everyone and getting trampled anyway... It was too much effort and I'm much happier not trying to bend over backwards for jerks who don't like who I really am.


I've found out from experience that if I want an answer that will help me in those kinds of situations I have to ask very specific questions and explain that I just don't understand what they mean but want to and want to fix it. I tell them they need to help me by answering what may seem silly to them but it will help me fix what is bothering them. Thats what I advised him to do. He asked a somewhat general question and the boss answered it generally as well. Most people don't need to be told exact specifics and examples, but we do. You can find that out without telling somebody you are on the spectrum. I had to do the exact type of thing many, many times decades before I ever heard of AS or got my dx for it, so it's very possible. You have to ask in a certain way and I gave him those instructions. That will help unless it's just an as*hole boss, in which case nothing helps so this can't hurt.


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28 Jun 2015, 1:28 pm

OliveOilMom wrote:
kamiyu910 wrote:
Hollowmoon said they tried to find out more, but that it made it worse. They might be afraid of telling everyone about being on the spectrum, because some people have been fired for that. One can pursue the wrongful termination but it doesn't always work even if you've tried everything to fix the situation. I wish every story had a just ending, but sadly, this world is not very just when it comes to people who are not "normal." We can try our hardest to fit in, to appease people, and it won't do any good because our mere existence is enough to put some people off.
Sorry I'm a bit cynical, I'm just so tired of trying to appease everyone and getting trampled anyway... It was too much effort and I'm much happier not trying to bend over backwards for jerks who don't like who I really am.


I've found out from experience that if I want an answer that will help me in those kinds of situations I have to ask very specific questions and explain that I just don't understand what they mean but want to and want to fix it. I tell them they need to help me by answering what may seem silly to them but it will help me fix what is bothering them. Thats what I advised him to do. He asked a somewhat general question and the boss answered it generally as well. Most people don't need to be told exact specifics and examples, but we do. You can find that out without telling somebody you are on the spectrum. I had to do the exact type of thing many, many times decades before I ever heard of AS or got my dx for it, so it's very possible. You have to ask in a certain way and I gave him those instructions. That will help unless it's just an as*hole boss, in which case nothing helps so this can't hurt.


I'm glad your experience has differed from mine.


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