When does stimming become not normal?

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Your grades do not necessarily reflect your intelligence, especially if you're autistic. Sadly, many teachers will not refer a child for giftedness testing simply because the child does not have grades significantly superior to his or her peers. I live in Ontario, Canada and teachers are supposed to recommend students for the Canadian Cognitive Abilities Test (commonly called the CCAT) in the third grade, and I was never recommended. My mother had to arrange for me to take it separately in the fifth grade, and when my results returned I had received 100% (to put this in perspective: no one else in my school board had this score). I now realize what I just wrote appears to be me bragging about my intelligence, but the point was that you not having a gifted identification does not mean you wouldn't qualify for one. Because ASD is accompanied with asymmetric development, aspies are notorious for sometimes doing things which others would view as childish or stupid, and then at other times acting more mature than one would expect, given their age.



Your description of what happened with the girl and her unwise decision to cut her hair (and then her reaction) is a classic example of an interaction between an NT individual and an individual with ASD. Going too far with teasing and joking, excessive honesty (which I don't believe is actually a thing, but apparently most people do; this is part of the reason our society is so dysfunctional), and thinking of jokes before hand are all symptomatic. I also sometimes talk to myself when I'm alone; from Tony Atwood's book about Asperger's I learned that this is rehearsing a social situation, and is used to practise. Most aspies can interact for short periods of time without needing to plan every part of the interaction before it occurs, but afterwards will need to be alone for a while because interaction like that is exhausting.



This is sensory sensitivity. Sensory processing disorders have varying severity as well as vary in what types of sensory input cause discomfort.



This is what having difficulty discerning sarcasm looks like. You very likely were able to tell he was being sarcastic not because of microexpressions (which apparently NTs can detect, but aspies cannot) or body language, but because it doesn't make sense for someone to put the old battery back into the phone. Taking longer than most people to see the sarcasm is the same as having difficulty detecting it.



That's good. Of course I'm not an expert, but I've read quite a bit about ASD and I regularly see a psychologist with whom I discuss these things, and everything you've said indicates an autism spectrum diagnosis is very likely. As another commenter indicated, though, it's important to see a professional with an above average knowledge of ASD because it's much more likely to be misdiagnosed when it is high functioning (i.e. diagnosed as something like OCD and ADHD, rather than ASD).



People with ASD can have a comorbid social anxiety disorder, however it's common for aspies to think they have social anxiety when they wouldn't qualify for a diagnosis. The reason for this is that aspies will consider their social ability relative to the social abilities of the NT people around them, but that's not a realistic bar to set because the amount and type of social interaction that is healthy and normal for someone with ASD is much less and very different than for someone who is NT. I'm also anxious is almost every social encounter, especially when it's with someone I don't know (even things like speaking to a clerk in a store, like you've said), but my psychologist says I definitely do not have social anxiety disorder because if one has difficulty understanding social interaction as one with ASD would, it is normal to be anxious when doing it. For example, if you knew you weren't very good at public speaking and then you have to give a speech in front of a bunch of people, you would be anxious. That doesn't mean then that you have an anxiety disorder, because it is a healthy and normal response to an external stressor. For most aspies social interaction is the same.



I haven't read anything discussing anxiety related to talking about one's special interest, however I have read that there are some aspies for whom the special interest is a very private thing and therefore they do not speak to people about it. A key feature of the special interest is that it is almost always something the person with ASD does alone, and thus if you do not have the tendency to talk about your personal life with your friends then it would make sense that you wouldn't tell them about your special interest(s). There are times when I'm nervous whilst talking about mine, but this is mostly because in relation to my special interest I despise getting anything wrong and will stress over it for days if I say something incorrect in a conversation. When I was (briefly) in regular high school I also didn't discuss my special interests very much because people didn't like the monologuing and would make fun of me, which I hated.



"I'm way too normal to have ____" is a stereotype of denial. When the psychologist originally asked me if I saw any of the symptoms of my cousin's autism in myself, I immediately said I did not. Then I went home and thought about it in a more objective manner, read a few articles, and realized I had jumped to incorrect conclusions. Two weeks later I was diagnosed with ASD.



Yes, it is something ASD can explain. Autistic people are prone to short and severe emotional outbursts, which is what's generally called a meltdown. However these can be either directed outward (to other people, throwing things, etc.), or inward (self-injurious stimming, LOTS of rocking, etc.). The outbursts can come on suddenly, and then go away equally as suddenly. Meltdowns are sort of like purging oneself of the emotions, so once one has a meltdown one often feels just fine afterwards, albeit tired. Also, apparently saying you want to kill yourself when you're experiencing a meltdown (but knowing you don't really mean you'd like to commit suicide) happens because aspies usually have a poor vocabulary for emotions relative to their vocabulary for other aspects of life, and so all they can think to say when they're experiencing the severe emotion is something like that.



Autistic people are more sensitive to yelling than most NTs, so someone yelling even once can really bother the aspie, and this can even be the case if the yelling is not directed toward him/her (by this I mean the person who was yelling was not upset with the person with ASD). Tony Atwood seems to think this is because of a combination of sensory sensitivity and a difficulty unconsciously recognizing at whom the negative emotions of another person are directed.



I know what you mean. I'm fairly certain it has more to do with dichotomous thinking (i.e. 'black and white thinking'). So, for example, if someone tells me once that wearing a colour other than black to a funeral is wrong, I will pretty much forever think that it is totally unacceptable ever to wear something that isn't black to a funeral, and will become embarrassed and upset if someone else wears something that isn't black because they aren't 'following the rules', so to speak. It's the same with people who use their cell phones in a movie theatre, or speak loudly while the movie is playing (as you've said); once the rule is in my mind it is branded in there and anyone who doesn't follow the rules bothers me immensely, especially if I'm with them in public.



My mother and I are like that also. It's because you're used to them and they know what you're like. I'm comfortable around my family members because they know me, and thus they know if I slip up and say something offensive or miss some sarcasm or don't understand a joke or monologue about physics or stim really obviously, they won't be mean and they won't ridicule me.



Your grandmother doesn't know what she's talking about. My grandparents also didn't believe I had autism when I first told them, and I am fairly certain they still don't. But of course it doesn't matter because they are wrong, and if they choose to continue to be wrong then there's nothing I can do about it (much to my chagrin, I assure you). I am positive one can have an ASD can be how you have described yourself, because I am very much like that and I have an ASD. (Sport statistics are a stereotypical special interest, especially of people with ASD who are male, but of course most autistic people aren't stereotypes.)



My parents originally didn't think I had problems in that area either, but my psychologist says I make fewer facial expression than most people, have very little body language, and often have a monotonous voice. I'm an only child, so my parents had nothing to which to compare me. It is important to note that everyone is their own average, meaning they are their own reference, so your parents are likely used to having an aspie child. Even if you have siblings, generally the parents will identify the child with ASD as "quirky" or "odd", etc, but will chalk it up to a personality type rather than a different neurotype.



There are many aspies who have learning disabilities in mathematics, though you shouldn't discount all maths just because you're poor at algebra. Calculus is not like algebra and it is WONDERFUL. Having a strange gait is also common, as is lacking what most people would call 'common sense'. This is usually due to literal thinking ('common sense', it would seem, is really the ability to make the correct assumptions based on how a message is conveyed, i.e. implicit meanings in the words; aspies are terrible with this because they tend to be literal interpreters). Having difficulty organizing your thoughts, information overload, taking longer to process some types of information; these are all indicative of the executive functioning difficulties that go along with ASD. Having trouble verbalizing is also almost universal (for some people with autism is means being nonverbal, for others it just means feeling as though you're much cleverer in your head than you are when you speak).



Precisely. I'm seventeen and female and was recently scrolling through the twitter feed of an adolescent girl with whom I used to attend school, and it was a very strange experience. Afterwards I told my father that I felt like I'd missed some sort of memo regarding how properly to be a teenage girl. I am nothing like her. I'm more like a sixty year old male professor than I am like most seventeen year old girls I've heard and seen. So I understand what you're saying exactly.

(I would like to apologize for how long this post is. Tendency to obsess; case in point.)

No reason to apologize for how long your post was.
Thanks that was pretty helpful. I think a lot of my thing is when you feel different for so long sometimes you don't even realize what your doing is different.
So I think a diagnosis of ASD/NVLD for me is pretty likely. Although I probably have OCD as well as I worry about things constantly and I can't stop the thoughts. I wonder if I could have ADHD too? Although I feel like that is the exact opposite of OCD. Maybe some of my ADHD traits could be explained by ASD? Like not being able to sit and do my school work because I can't stop thinking about my obsessive interests? I mean if I find something interesting I can spend hours doing it but if I don't find it interesting it is extremely hard for me to mentally focus on it. Sometimes I walk into rooms and forget why I walked into that room. I zone out while the teacher is giving instructions sometimes because it is hard for me to process and understand the instructions. But I had a friend with ADHD and often times when your talking to him you could tell he wasn't listening. Or you would say things to him and he would just completely not process it and I never do that. I always listen and try to understand when people are conversing with me. It's not hard for me to pay attention when I am in a conversation. If I am in the middle of watching tv and my parents come and say something to me I can switch my attention pretty easily. Also I do get hyper while in class usually when I am happy or feel like I am fitting in. But I am usually the exact opposite of impulsive. Every decision is thought of and consequences viewed. And like today I tried to read a book were supposed to read for school but I couldn't concentrate on it because I couldn't stop thinking about if I had ADHD or not or all the better enjoyable things I could be doing and found myself not being able to pay attention. Could that be explained by ASD/OCD or should I see about getting a additional ADHD diagnosis? Sorry if I am acting like your not a 17 girl but a professional psychologist I just think your smart and want your opinion.

Like if I were to diagnosis everything I meet the criteria for it would probably be

OCD,ASD,NVLD,ADHD, and Social Anxiety Disorder.
But like you said with the Social Anxiety Disorder thing it may just be ASD and not that. I wonder, if you were at your birthday party and your family took you out to eat and they started signing happy birthday to where the whole restaurant could hear, would you get anxious even though your psych says you can't have social anxiety disorder?

That's largely what I meant when I said everyone is his/her own reference: any person has always only been himself or herself, and therefore everything one does (which one has always done) seems normal to oneself. It's only when the behaviour is put in the context of the behaviour of other people that one can identify it as abnormal, and sometimes instead of identifying your own behaviour as abnormal you'll instead identify everyone else's as such. This, I think, is why I always felt that everybody around me was much too social--because actually I am antisocial, but I have always also been my own reference for what an acceptable level of sociability means.



Probably; if not both, at least the ASD.



There are lots of characteristics of autism spectrum disorder which seem like OCD and ADHD/ADD, but would not warrant any additional diagnoses. ADHD is not the opposite of OCD and they can and do coexist, but having trouble focusing on things which aren't related to one of your special interests, having poor verbal processing (sometimes hearing what people say but not really as words; just as sort of gibberish noise), walking into rooms and forgetting what you were going to do in there, and constantly worrying about possible scenarios (even incredibly unlikely ones) are all almost universal amongst aspies. None of these things mean you have OCD or ADHD/ADD; instead they are all congruent with the specific profile of executive function problems that people with ASD generally have. From what you've written, I'd be very surprised if you were diagnosed with ADHD or OCD. You are describing the symptoms of ASD that aren't socially-related, which, because they partially sound like ADHD and OCD, are often the reason autistic people are misdiagnosed as attention deficit or obsessive compulsive when they should have been diagnosed as autistic. You should also keep in mind that though most aspies have some obsessive compulsive characteristics (like excessive worrying, which can easily become so severe that it's crippling), they must be causing the person significant distress before they are diagnosed as a "disorder". I also forget what I was going to do in a room, worry constantly, have trouble understanding verbal instructions, etc., but I do not have ADHD or OCD. I have many obsessive compulsive behaviours, but they aren't severe enough or disabling enough to be called a disorder. This is the case with many aspies.



To me, it does not seem like you have OCD, ADHD, or Social Anxiety Disorder. Of course, I don't know you and don't have very much information to use, but given everything you've written. All of the symptoms you've described would be explained very well with ASD and would not require any further diagnoses, except perhaps NVLD. Especially if you have hyperfocus in relation to a special interest (being able to learn about a special interest for hours on end without breaking focus), it is very unlikely you have ADHD. Usually aspies have difficulty concentrating on something which doesn't thoroughly interest them. And though autistic people have social anxiety, it generally isn't a disorder because anxiety is a healthy response to social situations when one is not socially capable. Keep in mind also that aspies are notorious for either thinking they have many disorders they do not have, or refusing to believe they have a disorder when they do have one. The point being it is easy for people with ASD to start self-diagnosing with many comorbid disorders when they likely don't have them.



Yes, I would probably become very anxious. I would be anxious because I wouldn't want the attention of everyone in the restaurant, as that would mean a great deal of social interaction would be more likely to occur. If you can blend into large crowds, you don't have to worry about starting a conversation with anyone. The only time I would ever like the attention of a large number of people to be on me is if I were talking about physics, for instance once I am a professor and am lecturing a class.

Thank you so much for actually answering my continuous questions, most people would be annoyed.

I read that people with ADHD or ADHD PI (predominately inattentive) often are able to hyper focus on things for hours on end to the exclusion of all other things (a lot like A obsessive interest) which is what I do often. I sometimes doubt if I really have obsessive interests or just hyper focusing. I mean I like a lot of different things that I often devote a lot of attention to ex: music, youtube, tv, and now researching what disorders I think I might have. Is it normal for a Aspie to have a variety of interests? Though in my years of living there is usually one interest which I am more obsessed with. But I can do my other interests and not think about that one, but usually once I do think about that interests it is hard for me to stop, and sometimes I want to stop thinking about a interests but my mind refuses to let me or a worry (which is why they diagnosed me with ocd). Also I often forget to do chores and other routine based things and reminders are really helpful for me (like taking out the garbage every sunday) which is a very ADHD thing to do. I also read that most people with NVLD meet the criteria for ADHD PI. I hate waiting in lines and when I am bored in class it's hard for me to sit still. And considering how high functioning I am in comparison to many other Asperger's people, maybe I just have NVLD (which is often considered to have many Asperger symptoms but usually higher functioning) and ADHD PI which would explain the hyperfocusing. The only reason I doubt that is that Hand Flapping isn't really associated with NVLD. Though many people with NVLD have sensory problems so maybe that could be causing the stimming? Also now that you mention those ocd like aspie traits it seems more likely that I don't have ocd but more likely ASD. But I'm wondering can these things be explained by ASD?
1.When in a car I sometimes think "what if I stuck my phone out of the window" and once I think that it's hard for me to not do it and I have actually done it many times (never lost a phone though lol).
2.Usually I am a lazy disorganized person but sometimes I will get a random "cleaning bug" and have to clean everything in my room and make it look exactly how I think it needs to. And if I try to ignore the idea of not cleaning it I will just battle the thought until I give in.
3. It's hard for me not to think of all the bad things that could happen in a situation. Like when I go into a elevator I imagine the doors closing while someone is in the middle of them killing the person. Or if my parents are tossing my baby brother in the air I get anxiety because of all the bad things that could happen. Like I will visualize his head falling on concrete and splitting open. Sometimes at night I will start thinking of a burglar coming and killing me and I won't be able to sleep or will have to turn the light on to not be incredibly anxious (I am aware that it is irrational I just can't stop the anxiety). I have done that since I was a young kid, I would just start crying to get my parents to come into my room upstairs because I was afraid someone would climb my window and kill me (even though I knew that probably wouldn't happen).
So could someone with A ASD do all of that without OCD?

You're welcome. I do not find your questions annoying.



I have to admit that I don't know nearly as much about ADHD as I do about ASD, however I have read that hyperfocus in ADHD is much more common when the ADHD is comorbid with ASD. This being said, the difference between an obsessive interest (i.e. a special interest) and hyperfocus is that hyperfocus is specifically the ability to focus intently to the exclusion of all else, while a special interest is a more overarching topic of study on which an aspie will perseverate. So, for instance, my special interest is physics, and there are times when I experience hyperfocus while reading a physics textbook or completing a certain physical analysis. But it's not that the only time I spend on physics is while I am in a state of hyperfocus; I think about it very frequently, including when I'm also partially focused on other things. It is normal for an aspie to have more than one special interest at a time, and this is especially the case if the aspie is an adolescent or adult. I usually have my one continuous main interest (as above) which has been the same for years now, and then one or two sub-interests, as I like to call them. Right now those are making compilation CDs and researching ASD. Obsessive interests can also last a wide variety of durations of time, from a couple of weeks to years or even a lifelong interest.



Have you been formally diagnosed with OCD? If you have, it would be worthwhile to bring this up when you see the professional about the ASD diagnosis, because aspies tend to perseverate on a topic even if they don't have obsessive compulsive disorder. Hence the professional might wish to reevaluate the OCD diagnosis in the context of the ASD diagnosis, as the ASD would likely explain some of the character traits which probably led the first professional to diagnose you with OCD. Apparently the tendency to worry which so frequently goes along with ASD is related to a very visual and active imagination; i.e. if you can see the terrible thing happening in your mind's eye very clearly, it is much more difficult not to worry about it.



Forgetting to do chores which you do all the time, etc., usually pertains to poor self-monitoring. This is a part of executive function in which autistic people almost always lack. I recently completed some assessments related to executive function with my psychologist and my self-monitoring is below the tenth percentile, which is really quite low. But the assessments also showed that I do not have ADHD. Hating to wait in lines does seem like a symptom of attention deficit, however aspies are often bored in class if the topic isn’t related to one of their interests, and sensory processing disorder can cause people to have trouble sitting still. I can almost never sit still. Nonetheless, you should still bring up ADHD with the professional, also.



I seriously doubt you only have attention deficit and NVLD, as even together these two things would not account for the social difficulties you explained in your previous posts. Everything you said about being in social situations sounded very much like a description from a person with ASD. Also, hand flapping is often a dead giveaway for autism, though of course it alone is not enough for a legitimate diagnosis. Did you do any hand flapping/rocking/other obvious stimming behaviours when you were younger? As well, when you say there is a correlation between NVLD and sensory problems, I begin to wonder whether they have controlled for the correlation between NVLD and ASD (as almost every person with ASD has some form of SPD). If not, then the two correlative relationships could actually be describing the same phenomenon.



From what I have read, the answer is yes. As I said earlier in this post, aspies tend to have very visual minds and above average imaginations, which means they can visualize worrisome situations more clearly than many NT people would be able to visualise them. It’s been suggested that because an aspie can see the unpleasant situation playing out in his or her head with above average clarity, the situation starts to seem more real and therefore becomes more of a stressor. This leads to an increased capacity for persistent worry. So once you get the image of the baby falling and cracking open its skull in your brain, it becomes very difficult to forget it and therefore the idea becomes something about which you consistently worry. This is especially true because if an autistic person has a very clear visual memory. The idea of “what if I stuck my phone out the window” is called an intrusive thought, and it is common amongst all people who have obsessive-compulsive behaviours and/or are predisposed to difficulty with inhibition. Most aspies including those without OCD do have some obsessive-compulsive behaviours, and difficulties inhibiting behaviour and thoughts are common also. Because aspies are notorious worriers, they are also often have fears which might seem too immature for someone of their age: I’m still somewhat afraid of the dark, for instance (I’m also an atheist and naturalist and therefore don’t even believe supernatural things exist), as well as spiders. I’m also so afraid of elevators (I’m afraid to be stuck in one) that I will take the stairs whenever possible, including when there are more than ten flights. And I experience what you’ve called the “cleaning bug”. These are certainly obsessive-compulsive behaviours, but because it is in the context of ASD, they aren’t as abnormal and therefore do not warrant a diagnosis of OCD.

The reason I say maybe just NVLD is the severity. As people with NVLD are said to have more mild social problems than AS (though many of the social problems are the same, like problems with social ques, sarcasm,etc) really from what I have read the only major differences in social problems with ASD vs NVLD is that NVLD only people usually are not mind blind, (meaning NVLD people can see and recognize others mental states without problems), experience normal emotions but often are inept in expressing them (aspies don't have "normal" emotions). Other differences is that while some NVLD people like routines, they are not strict or nonfunctional like many AS peoples routines. NVLD routines are almost always functional. There just there help make things easier and that's usually what they do. People with NVLD don't experience the obsessive interests of someone with AS usually. NVLD people often do have sensory problems but repetitive motor movements like hand flapping and stims aren't usually associated with it (keep in mind that many NT people hand flap and stim) also considering the sensory problems maybe me feeling textures I like could be attributed to that and not necessarily AS.
So I definitely can recognize others mental states, any routines I do are functional and are NEVER a problem. Obsessive interests... this is were it gets tricky because while there are many things throughout my life I was interested in obsessively (when I was young I had to know about space, later conspiracy theories,etc) but not everything I engage in is obsessive. I actually often will go from one new cool thing that seems interesting to the next pretty quickly. Like I will be watching prank videos on YouTube then I will see a interesting recommended video about lets say scary real 911 calls, then I will watch that and look at other types of videos on this persons channel even though they don't have anything to do with 911 calls. Then I might start thinking about ASD or NVLD and then hyperfocus and obsessively look at forms on wrongplanet about that and google stuff. Then maybe dinner will be ready and I will want to watch tv with dinner. I will watch a show then listen to music.
The point of all of that is to show that I find things interesting and don't get obsessed and can lose attention in something I found interesting before pretty quickly. And when I am interested I am often not obsessed but just curious. While I have been persistently hyper focused and obsessed with if I have a ASD or not, once a suitable distraction that I find interesting is provided I can enjoy that distraction without ever being obsessed with it. And the ADHD mind (I would think especially ADHD PI) often ponders on things (at least it looks like). I had a friend with obvious ADHD and he had a fight with this kid and the kid was saying he beat him up (which I find stuff like that to be ridiculously stupid but that has nothing to do with anything) and we were at six flags and having a good time but all of the sudden my ADHD friend starting thinking about it and couldn't stop thinking and worrying about it but I managed to convince him that hey here why this and this is okay and he managed to put it to the side though he may or may not have been thinking about it and trying to resist the thoughts. This is very similar to what I do, I will be fine but then I start thinking about something stupid and can't stop. Though I am probably more obsessive and harder to distract than he is, this is probably do to the obsessive compulsive tendencies many NVLDers (and I would think Aspies also) have. One thing about NVLD people that I read that really hit home with me was a person with NVLD might take a minor criticism or negative response from a friend and worry for hours that the person hates them now. Which is something I do very often. Really I would be almost certain of the NVLD+ ADHD PI diagnosis if it wasn't for my stimming. My stimming is what makes me think ASD is a possibility. While I have found one or two articles saying sometimes people with NVLD hand flap and things like that most of the articles say that is more of a ASD thing and that hand flapping and other repetitive motor movements are not associated with NVLD. While there are even some NT's who do the hand flapping and things I do, I find it difficult to be content with having all of those aspie like problems (though they are to a smaller degree than most aspies have them) and accepting "you have NVLD and just happen to hand flap". Though since NVLD is known to have sensory problems and difficulty regulating emotions, why wouldn't stimiming be associated with it? NVLD is very unknown and the line between it and ASD is very blurred. I mean I fit the NVLD and ADHD PI (btw having ADHD is very common with NVLD with some professionals saying most people with NVLD have ADHD) catergory but the stimming does not line up. The stimming does not cause a problem in my functioning so a professional would probably just dismiss it as a quirk, I am still curious what the explanation for it is.