Nonautistic people know best?

Post Reply New Topic

So if a nonautistic person said, you should stop talking about your skills as a researcher but instead emphasize your disability, this would not seem weird to you?

Did somebody seriously say that to you????

.

LOL U MAD

Last edited by Adamantium on 31 Oct 2015, 12:50 pm, edited 5 times in total.: Recusing myself from any moderating on threads I participate in.

No, that was rephrased to match one of btbnnyr's areas of accomplishment, research.

What was said was that it is wrong for an autistic person to stress their strengths and successes because autism is a disability. It's claimed that recognizing any degree of success by one autistic person is somehow to deny recognition of or belittle the real needs of another autistic person.

I don't agree that autism is a disability (except in some very specific legal senses), though it is characterized by needs for support that are sometimes disabling. I think people should try to emphasize their strengths and minimize their weaknesses and recognize that there are many autistic traits that are traditionally stigmatized by social convention despite their representing no kind of disability and that is something that can, should and will be changed.

As the father of an autistic son, I find the denigration of successes by autistic people sad and frustrating. As the father of a neurodivergent daughter, I find the attacks on the ideas of the neurodiversity movement tragically foolish and self destructive. I can understand why some autistic people choose to blame the label for the pain and suffering in their lives and how that can fuel rage against positivity about autism, but I find it t incomprehensible that non-autistic people join in this.

I'm grateful to Norny for explaining some of his thinking around those positions because it's a window on a way of looking at things that I could not understand in the least degree. I don't think it explains the non-autistic parents of autistic people who insist that their children can only be understood as defective and disabled and rage against autistic people who are asserting themselves and focusing on their strengths, but it's interesting to understand some of what is behind that thinking in some people.

That would be suggestion based on their opinion, but I don't have to follow it.
I don't see any difference if autistic or non-autistic said that, I wouldn't take that suggestion.
Individuals say weird things all the time, many ideas spouted often, but who am I to stop them saying their opinion?
I can only disagree with it if I think it's bad idea.

Nothing wrong with that logic!

Not all nonautistics are NT.

I'm very curious how you would feel about people who are autistic expressing those same views.

It seems natural to me that some autistic people would discuss these things. For some, such thoughts would emerge naturally from the events of their lives. I wouldn't have any particular feelings for such people, though I might disagree with some of what they said. There are many such autistic people and I don't have any particular feelings about them as as a group.

I have had people tell me and insist on how I should respond or feel or act about something when they have never experienced anything like it. I usually find that sort of thing very annoying. I don't mind if they ask me about it or ask, "would it help if..." but to say, "you need to..." and insist that they know best when they can't even conceptualize what is happening to me is very irritating to me. Like for instance, when I was basically at the point of collapse at a family get together and I layed down on the couch to close my eyes and try to recover a bit my aunt came over and insisted that I "Get out there and be social" because that was what was best for me. I have also had people insist that I should call myself a person with Autism instead of an Autistic person because I am "normal" with just a few social issues that "we are going to fix." And the person, said, "yeah, you have that sensory sensitivity stuff too but that's not important."

To clarify, I'm not talking about a hypothetical person here; I'm talking about myself. Going into that feels like kind of a tangent though, so I won't unless you wish to.



I totally get that. I've definitely had that from people who don't "get" autism. I'm grateful my family at least did get it, or was willing to let me explain when they didn't. But a lot of times when I've gotten "you need to" comments from people who have a good understanding of autism they've turned out to be pretty much dead-on. A lot of those suggestions have been extremely helpful. Some have also been totally useless, but I'm not going to dismiss them all out of hand. In recent years, advice from knowledgeable non-autistic people has usually been a lot better for me than advice from autistic people. The difference in perspective does matter.

Should you be totally cool with it all the time? Of course not. I've found that dismissing it is also a mistake though. I'm curious if you've experienced the same.

I absolutely agree that I can take advice from anyone Autistic or not. In fact some of the best advice I have been given about some things have come from my non Autistic husband and brother. But they have spent years getting to know me and understand me and they really make great efforts to understand me. Sometimes their advice does not work or is not appropriate and they are willing to listen when I explain to them why it won't work for me. So I don't mind and even welcome people giving advice if it is coming from a "good place". But what really pisses me off is when it is not coming from a "good place".

It actually feels different. It feels like the person is trying to "give you advice" or to make you do something for their benefit, not because they care about you and how you feel. It was uncomfortable for my aunt to have me lay on the couch when guests were there. It was not normal and the "proper" thing was for me to be mingling and social with everyone else. That would have made me look normal and made her comfortable.

The person who told me I should identify as a "Person with Autism" rather than an "Autistic Person" thinks that I look too much like an NT and should not associate with traits and symptoms that "Autistic People" have. He really wanted me to be able to get the job he wanted me to have and therefore if I am an "Autistic Person" that job would not be suited for me. If he could just "fix my few social issues" and make me "understand" that my sensory sensitivities were trivial and somehow did not affect me like they do, then there would be no reason for me to not be able to do whatever he wanted me to do and he would succeed in his little "Save the Aspie" effort. His motive was more like, "look what I did to 'help' and 'improve' Skibum and make her a more functional part of society" rather than trying to know me and respect me for who I am.

So I can usually feel if the advice is to actually help me or if it's for the other person's benefit at my expense. And even if the advice is just to make others comfortable, if it comes from a "good place" I will listen. But if it is just given to manipulate me or "put me in my place" or put me in some kind of box just for social proper appearances sake, I have a huge problem with it.

One thing I have noticed is that when people are good hearted and trying to give helpful advice from that "good place" they are very open to listening to me and trying to understand what is actually going on with me. When people are not coming from that "good place" they seen to be very insistent and expect me to only listen to them and do exactly what they say and want no matter how I am affected. The first situation I welcome and I welcome it from anyone. The second is more of what I was talking about in my earlier post.

Heartfelt advice could and should be taken from any neurology. If you say I won't take advice from non autistics you eliminate 98% of potential resources.

I think most of the NTs here at WP have been very respectful, even when voicing differences of opinion. Disagreement is fine, it's how we grow.

I see more of a disrespectful "I know better" attitude outside of WP, in news articles, the comments sections below the articles, on parenting boards, and in real life. The commenters on news articles tend to run toward "you Aspergers and your neurodiversity movement are hijacking the autism message, you can't speak for my autistic kid!" And then, of course, they proceed to do just that. These tend to be the most hostile, since they have the cover of anonymity. There was one father flaming John Elder Robison for the grievous sin of suggesting in Psychology Today that it might not be good for an autistic kid's self image to say (within earshot), "I love my kid but hate autism." https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/my-life-aspergers/201509/does-neurodiversity-whitewash-autism. There's some kind of hysterical belief in some parents that somehow we are taking things away from their families, perhaps diverting precious resources from getting them help. I wonder if that is really the truth, though. I wonder how much of the curebie movement has been the real culprit in sucking up all the funds for support.

The other not respectful NT is as mentioned before here, the "pull yourself together" NT, either an acquaintance, coworker, or relative who doesn't know you well, who tells you that you could do better/socialize better/get over your sensitivities if you just tried harder. I'm not surprised when SocOfAutism said that nonvisible disabilities get more discrimination than visible ones--it's harder to tell a paraplegic that they could walk if they really wanted to.