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goatfish57
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17 Jan 2016, 2:29 pm

zkydz, like you, these are things that I am trying to work on. Less tension means less stress and that makes the world easier for me.

I hate the phone. Especially, when I get an unscripted phone call. My brother does this to me all the time. The conversation just wanders and all I want it is for it to end. Saying hello is fine. Checking up on the kid brother is not. Those calls can ruin my day. His intentions are good but not his judgement. Starting a fight or being nasty would be wrong.

I take the time to plan or script my phone calls. That way they are more pleasant. Whenever possible, I do the same for other daily encounters.

It is not about being right or wrong. My goal is to get out with the least amount of grief. Being Daniel in the Lion's Den is not a good place. As I said, this is a work in progress.


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17 Jan 2016, 4:31 pm

People tend to think I am arguing when I state my opinion or perspective or my thoughts so whenever I have having a discussion with someone, I always worry if I am coming off as argumentative. I just feel that whenever someone shares a different opinion, people will call it arguing because they don't like someone having a different view than them. But then again I am sure some people don't like to debate or discuss things where one person doesn't agree or when they share a different opinion. The best way to avoid this is to not say anything and the topic dies quickly. Do not add to it or contribute or else the person might think you are interested in the discussion and keep it going. It always baffles me when someone and I are talking and then they do the 180 on me because why did they even contribute to the discussion if they didn't want to hear it?

In real life I used to get accused of arguing all the time and I am not sure what changed. Either I have gotten too afraid to even talk or I changed something or people just stopped accusing me of arguing. I am just quiet and barely even talk to anyone.


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17 Jan 2016, 9:49 pm

I speak clearly, calmly and verbatim to exactly what I mean to say.

When misunderstood I repeat myself with slightly different words to retry and express what I'm trying to communicate.

This only results in frustration and stress on my mother's part. It's gotten to the point where after heated arguments over little things I've actually had to explain to her that this is my communication style.

Her communication style to me is repeating the same answers over and over again because she assumes i am just saying the same thing, but in a different way.

It's moreso I'm trying to repeat myself to communicate what I ACTUALLY MEAN to say, as I felt she misunderstood me and the answer she's giving me is not what I was looking for.

Usually, this IS the case and in the end, I finally do recieve the answer I was actually looking for because she finally figured out what I was saying, but after needlessly complicated arguing/going back and forth.

I do hope someone reading this can also relate and knows exactly what I'm trying to say.

I encounter this with most people. Most people also get extremely frsutrated and more agitated than I am 90% of the time while I stay as calm and clear as possible.

And then the second I get even slightly angry, they might hypocritically become cross with me. Even after I tell them 'You getting stressed out first is what's making me stressed out. I'm just trying to communicate calmly and clearly here' they deny responsibility and shift all blame to me for stressing them out and escalating the tension even though I can choose to remain calm and they cannot.



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17 Jan 2016, 10:05 pm

The standard way to argue with me is to remind me we don't have the same status. Guess who's always below.


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slw1990
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17 Jan 2016, 11:29 pm

I have this problem too and sometimes with a close family member. Sometimes when I tell them something they seem to think that what I'm saying has a different meaning to it. Then if I try to explain it again they still don't understand and say that I'm arguing with them when I would just be trying to get them to understand what I was saying. I don't even think I sound angry when I would be talking to them about it. It's frustrating because it seems like these people are so focused on playing games and being powerful that they never really listen to what your actually saying and instead think that there is a hidden meaning behind what you are saying like you are somehow trying to challenge them or something. Then it would seem like they would disagree with me, just to do it because when I would ask them about it they wouldn't seem to have much to back it up and change the subject or say something different than what they said before so it would seem like they would just be trying to confuse me. It also seems like some people don't really take what I say very seriously and just start assuming things that aren't always true. I usually try not to talk to these people as much because it's frustrating and not worth the stress.



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18 Jan 2016, 8:02 am

I am still not terribly clear on this, and what research I have done is pretty minimal, but experientially it seems to be true, so take this opinion as only that, please: a theory, if you will.

I think a big part of the issue with us a communication with most people is a matter of emotion. Emotion, I believe, is somehow attached to many if not most of the thoughts and ideas normal people have. With us, that isn't true, or at least is much less true. I can't comprehend it really, but my experience and limited research seem to point that way. A person has a thought or idea, and an emotional connection to it at the same time. Challenge the idea, and you challenge the emotion, which defies logic.

The emotion, I think, could be anything. Love for tge person they got the idea from, or hate, or pleasure from the ice cream they ate while thinking about it, I don't know. Makes no sense to me, but I think that is how it works.

That is also how advertising works. Exposure theory and such: eventually a good feeling is generated to associate with the product, then logic is no longer as relevant, and people buy the advertised products. That I, for example, don't work this way to the same degree, is possibly why commercials and othrr advertisements only irritate me rather than convince me of anything. Others are convinced by them.

This applies to face to face communication rather dramatically, because you can pick up a collection of techniques to appeal to emotion when talking to people, even if you don't understand it intuitively. For example, if another person is sitting and you want to speak to them, particularly if you want to challenge something they have said or done, you have to sit as well. Standing beside a sitting person majes them feel threatened and defensive. Another example is a firm (not soft... that took me a while to get right) clap and squeeze on the shoulder. Makes people feel reassured and cared about (only if they know you and know you are there, don't do this from behind as it changes the emotional connotation).

My whole set of interaction methods is built this way: methodically, and mostly from trial and error of ideas based on this concept and observations of how NTs interact with each other. Much I cannot replicate, but it is possible to get enough tricks down to communicate better, more often.

Consider it this way: We speak a different language, in a sense, than most people. It is reasonable for us to ask those who are closest to us to learn a bit of our language for us. But for us to ask 98% of people to learn this for us is not reasonable: we must learn some of theirs. I recommend making an effort to study Nt-Nt interactions and start trying some of the patterns you see, as though they were new words and phrases. It doesn't really matter if you understand why they are what they are, just figure out how to use them to your advantage, help connect people to you, so they will want to hear what you say.



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18 Jan 2016, 9:12 am

mishtheelf wrote:
I am still not terribly clear on this, and what research I have done is pretty minimal, but experientially it seems to be true, so take this opinion as only that, please: a theory, if you will.

I think a big part of the issue with us a communication with most people is a matter of emotion. Emotion, I believe, is somehow attached to many if not most of the thoughts and ideas normal people have. With us, that isn't true, or at least is much less true. I can't comprehend it really, but my experience and limited research seem to point that way. A person has a thought or idea, and an emotional connection to it at the same time. Challenge the idea, and you challenge the emotion, which defies logic.

The emotion, I think, could be anything. Love for tge person they got the idea from, or hate, or pleasure from the ice cream they ate while thinking about it, I don't know. Makes no sense to me, but I think that is how it works.

That is also how advertising works. Exposure theory and such: eventually a good feeling is generated to associate with the product, then logic is no longer as relevant, and people buy the advertised products. That I, for example, don't work this way to the same degree, is possibly why commercials and othrr advertisements only irritate me rather than convince me of anything. Others are convinced by them.

This applies to face to face communication rather dramatically, because you can pick up a collection of techniques to appeal to emotion when talking to people, even if you don't understand it intuitively. For example, if another person is sitting and you want to speak to them, particularly if you want to challenge something they have said or done, you have to sit as well. Standing beside a sitting person majes them feel threatened and defensive. Another example is a firm (not soft... that took me a while to get right) clap and squeeze on the shoulder. Makes people feel reassured and cared about (only if they know you and know you are there, don't do this from behind as it changes the emotional connotation).

My whole set of interaction methods is built this way: methodically, and mostly from trial and error of ideas based on this concept and observations of how NTs interact with each other. Much I cannot replicate, but it is possible to get enough tricks down to communicate better, more often.

Consider it this way: We speak a different language, in a sense, than most people. It is reasonable for us to ask those who are closest to us to learn a bit of our language for us. But for us to ask 98% of people to learn this for us is not reasonable: we must learn some of theirs. I recommend making an effort to study Nt-Nt interactions and start trying some of the patterns you see, as though they were new words and phrases. It doesn't really matter if you understand why they are what they are, just figure out how to use them to your advantage, help connect people to you, so they will want to hear what you say.



I believe you're referring to psychology.

The standing/sitting example relates to mirroring.

Mirroring = copying/imitating another person's posture, gesture, facial expression, etc. non-voluntarily to create emphasis, connection, and to be of the same social status as the other person.

Standing especially in a situation when expected to sit indicates you feel you have a higher social status than the other person.

Sitting down with them, along with mirroring, intentionally evokes an 'I'm at your level, not above you. Now, let's talk, as equals' mindset.

I self-teach myself a variety of psychology and this is what actually taught me my debate skills - to be extremely clear, succint and accurate in what I say.

Though I do agree about most people applying their opinions as tied to their emotions.

I still have the issue of basing my opinions off logic, and trying to explain them in this precise way as well.

Perhaps I should get back to the psychology thing again to think of some tricks and methods of interaction again.



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18 Jan 2016, 10:08 am

People argue with me mostly by expressing their opinions as facts, and then verbally attacking me when the real facts don't support those opinions. It's as if they are more concerned with being believed than with telling the truth.


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18 Jan 2016, 10:15 am

Fnord wrote:
People argue with me mostly by expressing their opinions as facts, and then verbally attacking me when the real facts don't support those opinions. It's as if they are more concerned with being believed than with telling the truth.


I have noticed this, too.

My conjecture is that many people have a belief system that is based on the idea that the popularity of an idea or argument somehow creates its validty--my sense of this is that many people believe this almost without thinking about it. It seems to be an unquestioned premise that underlies a lot of behavior.



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18 Jan 2016, 10:21 am

Fnord wrote:
People argue with me mostly by expressing their opinions as facts, and then verbally attacking me when the real facts don't support those opinions. It's as if they are more concerned with being believed than with telling the truth.

Exactly. Others' normalcy biases are the culprit. They believe that they are correct in every instance, because they have never known themselves to be wrong in any instance (a self-fulfilling cognitive error).


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18 Jan 2016, 11:10 am

AspieUtah wrote:
Fnord wrote:
People argue with me mostly by expressing their opinions as facts, and then verbally attacking me when the real facts don't support those opinions. It's as if they are more concerned with being believed than with telling the truth.

Exactly. Others' normalcy biases are the culprit. They believe that they are correct in every instance, because they have never known themselves to be wrong in any instance (a self-fulfilling cognitive error).
Well, that and the lack of critical thought in today's societies. Almost all of them....they are losing that ability to evaluate and compare.

The 'facts' as they understand them are nothing but something to fill that internal narrative.

Had some guy (mover) that was taking a break while moving our stuff. He noticed the contrails coming out of an airplane. Got 15 minutes of "The contrails are poisoning everybody because the government is secretly spraying people" malarkey. Couldn't escape either since I was waiting for them to finish so I could go to my new apartment.

Hate being held hostage like that......


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18 Jan 2016, 12:45 pm

mishtheelf wrote:
A person has a thought or idea, and an emotional connection to it at the same time. Challenge the idea, and you challenge the emotion, which defies logic.


This is related to associative reasoning, or statistical reasoning. The basic premise is that when two things appear together they are associated, and if they appear together again the association becomes stronger.

It's adaptive in many cases, such as language learning, and a formalized version of it is used in many machine learning applications. There are also some obvious 'glitches', such as belief in lucky items. Some people are able to use associative reasoning when applicable and ignore it when not; there are other who can't or don't bother.

Advertisers target associative reasoning because it's easy. Some customers use more formal logic, but advertisers don't bother with them because it's too much work. This is also a big deal in politics: when you hear a politician talk a lot without saying much, they're trying to associate themselves with big, positive sounding things like 'make America great' or 'hope and change'.

For a detailed analysis of associative reasoning among humans see 'A Field Guide to Earthlings' by Ian Ford. For more information about formal statistical reasoning, see Coursera's machine learning class (https://www.coursera.org/learn/machine-learning/).



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18 Jan 2016, 10:27 pm

zkydz wrote:
What is your presentation? I always thought I was being calm and rational. Turns out, what I tried to put out, came out all wonky and mix that with the body language and facial expressions that are out forth, well, maybe 'they' are not as much at fault as I once thought.
I don't agree that it's all our fault either. As for double standards, doesn't everybody? Most are things people are unaware of just like how you are presenting yourself.

I do agree about the double standards, I know we all have some (though like you said, we don't neccessarily know it) But the people I was specifically thinking of have some pretty obvious ones that whether they see it or not, affects multiple people often. A friend outside the family has even brought them up without my mentioning them.

I've wondered about how I think I'm responding versus how I am actually coming across as far as tone, body language, etc. But I know the one family member assumes things out of simple actions when there is no basis for such things. Real-life example: I walked passed them and happen to yawn. They asked why I just 'fake yawned' saying it was suspicious. I actually did yawn, it wasn't fake. I'm often tired, hence the yawn. So I am not sure about my body language as far as communicating goes. I am going to start trying to be more aware of this sort of thing to see what I can do to improve body language and tone that other people are going to easily misread. I really do try to give people benefit of the doubt but its happened so many times with these two people and not very often at all with other people (granted I don't talk to many people so it is very possible that the few others I do talk to are less effected by body language).

Outrider wrote:
I speak clearly, calmly and verbatim to exactly what I mean to say.

When misunderstood I repeat myself with slightly different words to retry and express what I'm trying to communicate.

This only results in frustration and stress on my mother's part. It's gotten to the point where after heated arguments over little things I've actually had to explain to her that this is my communication style.

Her communication style to me is repeating the same answers over and over again because she assumes i am just saying the same thing, but in a different way.

It's moreso I'm trying to repeat myself to communicate what I ACTUALLY MEAN to say, as I felt she misunderstood me and the answer she's giving me is not what I was looking for.

Usually, this IS the case and in the end, I finally do recieve the answer I was actually looking for because she finally figured out what I was saying, but after needlessly complicated arguing/going back and forth.

I do hope someone reading this can also relate and knows exactly what I'm trying to say.

I encounter this with most people. Most people also get extremely frsutrated and more agitated than I am 90% of the time while I stay as calm and clear as possible.

And then the second I get even slightly angry, they might hypocritically become cross with me. Even after I tell them 'You getting stressed out first is what's making me stressed out. I'm just trying to communicate calmly and clearly here' they deny responsibility and shift all blame to me for stressing them out and escalating the tension even though I can choose to remain calm and they cannot.


I can very much relate to this, the only difference is I have trouble communicating that this is how I communicate. By the time the conversation is at a point where explaining that would be helpful I'm already too flustered. When I'm flustered my brain starts tossing words around in my head and I can no longer find the right ones, which is definitely not helpful.

mishtheelf wrote:
I think a big part of the issue with us a communication with most people is a matter of emotion. Emotion, I believe, is somehow attached to many if not most of the thoughts and ideas normal people have. With us, that isn't true, or at least is much less true. I can't comprehend it really, but my experience and limited research seem to point that way. A person has a thought or idea, and an emotional connection to it at the same time. Challenge the idea, and you challenge the emotion, which defies logic.

Thinking about the people who usually get upset with me over what I perceived to be a logical response, this actually makes sense. They are usually more emotional in their thinking. Which is most likely why it surprises me, I wasn't being emotional about it and didn't realise they were.


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18 Jan 2016, 10:53 pm

slw1990 wrote:
I have this problem too and sometimes with a close family member. Sometimes when I tell them something they seem to think that what I'm saying has a different meaning to it. Then if I try to explain it again they still don't understand and say that I'm arguing with them when I would just be trying to get them to understand what I was saying. I don't even think I sound angry when I would be talking to them about it. It's frustrating because it seems like these people are so focused on playing games and being powerful that they never really listen to what your actually saying and instead think that there is a hidden meaning behind what you are saying like you are somehow trying to challenge them or something. Then it would seem like they would disagree with me, just to do it because when I would ask them about it they wouldn't seem to have much to back it up and change the subject or say something different than what they said before so it would seem like they would just be trying to confuse me. It also seems like some people don't really take what I say very seriously and just start assuming things that aren't always true. I usually try not to talk to these people as much because it's frustrating and not worth the stress.


If they’re used to putting words in your mouth and not caring what you actually mean, trying to force them to listen to you for real is, in fact, a challenge, so they’ll respond in kind.

In a similar vein, sometimes people will twist your words so they can disagree by defending the same thing you were actually saying. They just need to create the illusion that they’re setting you straight, which will probably work if there’s an audience more prone to sympathizing with them than with you—the last thing the audience will care about is what you actually said, so the illusion will be, for all practical purposes, as good as reality.


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18 Jan 2016, 10:59 pm

Adamantium wrote:
My conjecture is that many people have a belief system that is based on the idea that the popularity of an idea or argument somehow creates its validty--my sense of this is that many people believe this almost without thinking about it. It seems to be an unquestioned premise that underlies a lot of behavior.


I wonder if normal people have a concept of objective reality like ours at all. “Objective” reality is, in each environment, whatever the one in charge there believes, and that’s all there is to it.


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19 Jan 2016, 7:59 am

I wonder what would happen if there was an independent observer who would notice how we argue with other people.

What would we learn?


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