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DonTrump
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27 Feb 2016, 7:50 pm

zkydz wrote:
Anybody can learn to lie. Sometimes it's a reaction based in fear. Sometimes it's not understanding the question.

Not understanding the question or appropriate response:

"Did you knock that over?"
"No." ('Knocking over' has been used to describe a willful action, not bumping into things by accident)
This happened to me a lot.

Person you are terrified of asks:

"Did you knock that over?"
"No." (Because this person only shows interest when angry and has been violent even when honest)

You will get real good very quickly. It's not about anything but survival in that case. Amazing how that will hone your abilities.

That being said, I could not lie to save my life now. I'm not in those positions and I just don't see the need. Why keep up with all that additional crap? Tell it like it is, take the consequences and you don't have to remember what you said to whom and when.

Most people do not know what to do with it either when you're honest.



When I ask my dad a question I already know the answer to and he lies I start screaming. I would feel alot better about my dad if I knew he was an aspie as opposed to him being a Narcissist or a Sociopath. Part of me always thinks that maybe he is faking the Aspieness for compassion,then again I don't think he has the capability of faking something so serious. As a narcissist I can tell you that If the person already knows for a fact I am lying, I have the social intelligence to know not to try it because it will only make things worse. My dad admits he did irreparable harm to me and for some reason I just don't think that a narcissist would admit that. My gut feeling is that he feels threatened when I call him out on a lie,I am just intimidated by the 1% possibility that he could be just a very manipulative man. Yet again I do not think so. For example, at work one of his coworkers said her son had chrons disease and my dad brought wet wipes for the guy :roll: I know he meant well but for the most part he was just pouring salt in the wound. I just don't think a NPD would be stupid enough to make such mistakes


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TheAP
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27 Feb 2016, 8:52 pm

I think I can lie well. I'm good at keeping a straight face and making eye contact and acting normal. But I don't lie a lot, other than saying, "Nothing" when asked "What are you thinking?"--that kind of thing. Sometimes I even have compulsions to tell people certain truths about me.



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27 Feb 2016, 9:02 pm

TheAP wrote:
.....Sometimes I even have compulsions to tell people certain truths about me.
I'm a freakin' blabbermouth. I can't stop even when I know I should. Just way too much information.


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DonTrump
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27 Feb 2016, 9:37 pm

TheAP wrote:
I think I can lie well. I'm good at keeping a straight face and making eye contact and acting normal. But I don't lie a lot, other than saying, "Nothing" when asked "What are you thinking?"--that kind of thing. Sometimes I even have compulsions to tell people certain truths about me.


Those lies I wouldn't consider lies. If it is harmless and no one gets hurt it isn't a problem. I accept my dad's quirky habits/eccentricity. However,the guy used to kick me on the ground when I was a child. There is an aspie here that suggested that my dad kill me with a shotgun lol,imagine if my dad thought like that guy. I don't mind the aspies that are harmless,but some of the more severe ones do lash out and act irrationally when their feelings are hurt. Imagine if the guy that suggested my dad shoot me with a shotgun had kids,what kind of father would he be? I am glad my father at least helps me out financially,but growing up is very tough when your dad lacks the cognitive capacity to relate to others.


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Yigeren
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27 Feb 2016, 10:15 pm

People in general can be good, bad, or somewhere in between. There are aspies that have harmful behaviors because of their autism, and there are likely some that are just mean people, and it has nothing to do with autism.

Having autism can make it harder to relate to and understand others (cognitive empathy /theory of mind) , and make it more difficult to feel empathy as a result. But many of those on the spectrum actually have reported increased empathy and sympathy for others compared to the average person.

When I was young I could be quite callous, because I didn't understand others or how my behavior affected them. I also had an abusive childhood. But I have worked on these aspects of myself. And I've always had very strong feelings of affective/emotional empathy.

My point is that we are not all the same, and it's entirely possible that your dad is a jerk just because he's a jerk.



DonTrump
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27 Feb 2016, 11:44 pm

Yigeren wrote:
People in general can be good, bad, or somewhere in between. There are aspies that have harmful behaviors because of their autism, and there are likely some that are just mean people, and it has nothing to do with autism.

Having autism can make it harder to relate to and understand others (cognitive empathy /theory of mind) , and make it more difficult to feel empathy as a result. But many of those on the spectrum actually have reported increased empathy and sympathy for others compared to the average person.

When I was young I could be quite callous, because I didn't understand others or how my behavior affected them. I also had an abusive childhood. But I have worked on these aspects of myself. And I've always had very strong feelings of affective/emotional empathy.

My point is that we are not all the same, and it's entirely possible that your dad is a jerk just because he's a jerk.


I'm not really sure he is a jerk out of being a jerk. After I started beating him he started treating me alot better,he was really abusive until I started defending myself. Nowadays he tries to compensate by giving me a nice car and a good life.He pays for my apartment and tries to help me out,I can't really say he is a huge jerk because he has gotten a lot better after I explain to him how his behavior affected me as a child. My dad just couldn't give me life advice because he doesn't really understand people if that makes sense.My father shaped who I am as a person today and whether it was due to his autism or not doesn't really matter. A child doesn't know that his dad potentially has autism,all he knows is that the man doesn't show empathy and maybe I subconsciously tried to emulate him.Nowadays he is pretty passive but it is still hard as hell to relate to the guy.He doesn't really get as defensive as he used to because I think he has learned with age that things aren't always cut and dry. I know that I lack empathy but I can read body language subconsciously.My family is of latin American background so our cultural norms are different. I feel like In America when parents find out little billy has autism they just let their son use autism as an excuse for inappropriate behaviors.The user that posted that BS about my dad shooting his own flesh,or that sexual abuse victims are at fault really rubbed me the wrong way.When people say well autistic people are people and people can be good or bad,I can't say I necessarily agree with them. No neurotypical person fantasizes about killing people,or sees killing others as a justifiable way of solving problems.If a person thinks about killing,they are simply not neurotypicals.So we can't really say normal people think about killing others because if the person thinks about killing others than they are no longer normal. Not all killers are autistic(most aren't) but ALL killers are NOT neurotypicals. There is always an underlying condition.


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28 Feb 2016, 12:00 am

Neurotypical doesn't mean without mental illness. It just means people that have typical brain development. Their "wiring" is normal. NT people do think about murder. Murder and homicidal tendencies are part of human nature.

People with abusive childhoods may have anger issues and commit murder. It may even be just a normal part of culture for some people. Human behavior is really very complicated. It would be nice to say that people who do bad things aren't "normal", but they often are.

Human beings are animals, and we have animal instincts. We aren't perfect. We have intelligence, but often can't control our instincts and listen to our common sense.

Everything is really very complicated, and hard to explain. Perhaps you should study psychology and anthropology. You'll obtain a greater understanding of your father, yourself, humanity in general, and how we relate to the world we live in.



DonTrump
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28 Feb 2016, 12:33 am

Yigeren wrote:
Neurotypical doesn't mean without mental illness. It just means people that have typical brain development. Their "wiring" is normal. NT people do think about murder. Murder and homicidal tendencies are part of human nature.

People with abusive childhoods may have anger issues and commit murder. It may even be just a normal part of culture for some people. Human behavior is really very complicated. It would be nice to say that people who do bad things aren't "normal", but they often are.

Human beings are animals, and we have animal instincts. We aren't perfect. We have intelligence, but often can't control our instincts and listen to our common sense.

Everything is really very complicated, and hard to explain. Perhaps you should study psychology and anthropology. You'll obtain a greater understanding of your father, yourself, humanity in general, and how we relate to the world we live in.


On psychforums no one would call a NPD or a BPD a neurotypical.On psychforums usually NT is used to distinguish people that are actually normal to people that have personality disorders. I have spent 100s of thousands of hours reading about psychology.There isn't a brain scan to check for Asperger's and often times incompetent psychiatrist like to diagnose all difficult people as Asperger's. You can't honestly tell me that you consider a Schizophrenic a NT because nothing could be further from the truth. People that experience psychosis can not possibly be considered NT. There is nothing neurotypical about schizophrenia IMO. I think the term NT is used differently in wrong planet as opposed to psychforums. I don't think it really matters how autistic people relate to others as much as it matters how others relate to autistic people,lots of aspies seem to think it is other people's responsibility to adjust to them and there is nothing further from the truth.It is most important for your family members to be able to understand you,but definately not the worlds responsibility.I really wouldn't consider myself a NT even though I do not have autism(have gone through at least 8 evals throughout my lifetime so I think it is safe to say).Plus isn't it a distinct possibility my dad inherited some of his aspie traits to me? My mother is very empathetic but I do not relate to the world in the same way a normal person does,I don't give a f**k about love for instance.I am more concerned with admiration and adulation than with finding love.

Edit:I got the term confused with NON,I picked NT up from a different website.


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Yigeren
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28 Feb 2016, 2:11 am

Ok, there are differences between acquired mental illnesses, and inherited ones.

People can be genetically predisposed to develop anxiety disorders, depression, etc. But they aren't always specifically caused by biology. Environmental factors come into play, and can cause that person to develop the condition.

Then perfectly "normal", NT people can develop mental illness because of environmental factors only. There is no genetic predisposition, only life circumstances. They are basically just NT people who developed problems.

Then there are people who are born with disorders. Autism is a developmental disorder, not a mental illness. It's literally just a brain difference that can be caused by many different genetic factors. There are many types of autism with different origins.

Sociopathy/psychopathy are disorders thought to be genetic, but also thought to sometimes arise from early childhood trauma or separation, or both genetic predisposition and environment. But sociopaths have major differences in the way their brains work. These are biological differences and deficiencies. Sociopaths I'd not consider to be NT.

Narcissism resembles sociopathy, but has different origins. Usually narcissists have the capacity to feel affective/emotional empathy, but are self-centered, and don't feel empathy because of it. It's thought to be caused by environmental factors instead of genetic/biological ones. Narcissists are thought to have deep feelings of inadequacy, and low self-esteem, which they make up for by building themselves up in their own eyes, overestimating their own abilities, having unrealistic ideas of their own importance, and by using lies and manipulation to get admiration or other reactions from people. I have a person in my family that many suspect is a narcissist, and these things are true for that person. I don't believe narcissists are "wired" any differently from an NT. They just have mental illness due to problems stemming from childhood environment, usually.

Schizophrenia is thought to have strong genetic ties. I would say schizophrenics are not NT at all. Their brains work very differently.

Intellectually disabled people are also not NT.

I have no idea what NON is.

I consider NT to be a person who has neurotypical brain development and wiring, regardless of any mental illness. So a mental disorder arising from non-typical brain development would not be NT. Whereas one caused by other factors would just be a mental illness, and the person would be NT with mental illness.

And autism can be detected with fairly high accuracy with tests like fMRI (brain scan), and so can sociopathy. Also EEG shows differences between those with Asperger's/autism/ASD and neurotypicals.



DonTrump
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28 Feb 2016, 3:12 am

Yigeren wrote:
Ok, there are differences between acquired mental illnesses, and inherited ones.

People can be genetically predisposed to develop anxiety disorders, depression, etc. But they aren't always specifically caused by biology. Environmental factors come into play, and can cause that person to develop the condition.

Then perfectly "normal", NT people can develop mental illness because of environmental factors only. There is no genetic predisposition, only life circumstances. They are basically just NT people who developed problems.

Then there are people who are born with disorders. Autism is a developmental disorder, not a mental illness. It's literally just a brain difference that can be caused by many different genetic factors. There are many types of autism with different origins.

Sociopathy/psychopathy are disorders thought to be genetic, but also thought to sometimes arise from early childhood trauma or separation, or both genetic predisposition and environment. But sociopaths have major differences in the way their brains work. These are biological differences and deficiencies. Sociopaths I'd not consider to be NT.

Narcissism resembles sociopathy, but has different origins. Usually narcissists have the capacity to feel affective/emotional empathy, but are self-centered, and don't feel empathy because of it. It's thought to be caused by environmental factors instead of genetic/biological ones. Narcissists are thought to have deep feelings of inadequacy, and low self-esteem, which they make up for by building themselves up in their own eyes, overestimating their own abilities, having unrealistic ideas of their own importance, and by using lies and manipulation to get admiration or other reactions from people. I have a person in my family that many suspect is a narcissist, and these things are true for that person. I don't believe narcissists are "wired" any differently from an NT. They just have mental illness due to problems stemming from childhood environment, usually.

Schizophrenia is thought to have strong genetic ties. I would say schizophrenics are not NT at all. Their brains work very differently.

Intellectually disabled people are also not NT.

I have no idea what NON is.

I consider NT to be a person who has neurotypical brain development and wiring, regardless of any mental illness. So a mental disorder arising from non-typical brain development would not be NT. Whereas one caused by other factors would just be a mental illness, and the person would be NT with mental illness.

And autism can be detected with fairly high accuracy with tests like fMRI (brain scan), and so can sociopathy. Also EEG shows differences between those with Asperger's/autism/ASD and neurotypicals.


Sociopathy and Psychopathy are a little bit different contrary to popular belief

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/wi ... psychopath

I am not 100% sure I have NPD as I don't share certain things with the psycho evaluator. I am probably closer to a malignant narcissist. The narcissist develops a false sense of self but it isn't a conscious sense of low self esteem(In my conscious mind,or in my inner voice I am ultra confident and know EXACTLY who I am) when they say NPD has low self esteem it is completely subconscious from internal feelings in very early childhood. The way my child brain interpreted my dad's coldness could have contributed to my condition. Here is a highly interesting point contrasting the two disorders( I realize Asperger's is a neurological disorder and NPD is a personality disorder)

viewtopic.php?t=3626

Look at this guy for example



This guy to the blind eye could seem as an asperger(maybe) but if you look into his eyes you can see that gloss of evil.


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Yigeren
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28 Feb 2016, 3:45 am

Yes, I don't think the two disorders appear the same at all, and this man does not seem to have Asperger's to me. His eyes don't seem evil, but blank. His head movements, eye contact, eyebrow movements and other expressions are not indicative of Asperger's either. I could be wrong. I also disagree with what he is saying about those with Asperger's.

Those that are faking emotions are often easy to read because they don't mimic important, but less obvious parts of facial expressions. Fake-charming people don't usually charm me, instead I feel alarmed, because I can recognize the incongruities between the facial expressions, tone of voice, and the actual words being communicated.

I don't think narcissists are necessarily evil, but they aren't particularly interesting to me, either. I would say that sociopaths that enjoy manipulating others to cause them harm are evil. Those that lack emotions are, in my opinion, more like machines than people. Some people seem to revere sociopaths as if lacking empathy is a strength, but many ordinary people are capable of cutting off their emotions if need be (compartmentalizing), and also of being great liars and manipulators if they feel it's necessary.



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28 Feb 2016, 4:26 am

I am bad lier



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28 Feb 2016, 7:55 pm

How I take these words --
sociopathy: against society, on the whole
psychopathy: gravitates toward negativity
narcissist: worship of self

I was triggered, on many levels, and for a long time, but writings on *pathological narcissism would probably sound like revelations, in decoding neurotypical behavior. I believe that people can falter, for perfectly-legitimate reasons, but they will usually tend to be amazingly stable, and flippant.

I tell jokes with a deadpan, straight face, and am taken literally. And, that sense of danger never catches up with me immediately. I watched a rookie policeman's dog bite (!) him instead of me, and I'd bet I could pass a lie detector test, too.

The problem is that it eventually causes me to have panic attacks. Even if they are harmless, white lies, of the variety which are told out of politeness.

Through free association, I can slowly build up a detailed story. (Thinking of the late Zina Nicole Lahrs on Youtube.) But, I feel that it eventually gets too wordy and academical, and I lose NT people's ~20 sec attention spans.



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01 Mar 2016, 9:03 pm

DonTrump wrote:
Yigeren wrote:
People in general can be good, bad, or somewhere in between. There are aspies that have harmful behaviors because of their autism, and there are likely some that are just mean people, and it has nothing to do with autism.

Having autism can make it harder to relate to and understand others (cognitive empathy /theory of mind) , and make it more difficult to feel empathy as a result. But many of those on the spectrum actually have reported increased empathy and sympathy for others compared to the average person.

When I was young I could be quite callous, because I didn't understand others or how my behavior affected them. I also had an abusive childhood. But I have worked on these aspects of myself. And I've always had very strong feelings of affective/emotional empathy.

My point is that we are not all the same, and it's entirely possible that your dad is a jerk just because he's a jerk.


I'm not really sure he is a jerk out of being a jerk. After I started beating him he started treating me alot better,he was really abusive until I started defending myself. Nowadays he tries to compensate by giving me a nice car and a good life.He pays for my apartment and tries to help me out,I can't really say he is a huge jerk because he has gotten a lot better after I explain to him how his behavior affected me as a child. My dad just couldn't give me life advice because he doesn't really understand people if that makes sense.My father shaped who I am as a person today and whether it was due to his autism or not doesn't really matter. A child doesn't know that his dad potentially has autism,all he knows is that the man doesn't show empathy and maybe I subconsciously tried to emulate him.Nowadays he is pretty passive but it is still hard as hell to relate to the guy.He doesn't really get as defensive as he used to because I think he has learned with age that things aren't always cut and dry. I know that I lack empathy but I can read body language subconsciously.My family is of latin American background so our cultural norms are different. I feel like In America when parents find out little billy has autism they just let their son use autism as an excuse for inappropriate behaviors.The user that posted that BS about my dad shooting his own flesh,or that sexual abuse victims are at fault really rubbed me the wrong way.When people say well autistic people are people and people can be good or bad,I can't say I necessarily agree with them. No neurotypical person fantasizes about killing people,or sees killing others as a justifiable way of solving problems.If a person thinks about killing,they are simply not neurotypicals.So we can't really say normal people think about killing others because if the person thinks about killing others than they are no longer normal. Not all killers are autistic(most aren't) but ALL killers are NOT neurotypicals. There is always an underlying condition.


You keep equating autism/Asperger's with a lack of empathy. ASD is not about a lack of empathy--people who think that lack of empathy and autism are related suffer from a lack of correct information about autism.


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DonTrump
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01 Mar 2016, 9:34 pm

wilburforce wrote:
DonTrump wrote:
Yigeren wrote:
People in general can be good, bad, or somewhere in between. There are aspies that have harmful behaviors because of their autism, and there are likely some that are just mean people, and it has nothing to do with autism.

Having autism can make it harder to relate to and understand others (cognitive empathy /theory of mind) , and make it more difficult to feel empathy as a result. But many of those on the spectrum actually have reported increased empathy and sympathy for others compared to the average person.

When I was young I could be quite callous, because I didn't understand others or how my behavior affected them. I also had an abusive childhood. But I have worked on these aspects of myself. And I've always had very strong feelings of affective/emotional empathy.

My point is that we are not all the same, and it's entirely possible that your dad is a jerk just because he's a jerk.


I'm not really sure he is a jerk out of being a jerk. After I started beating him he started treating me alot better,he was really abusive until I started defending myself. Nowadays he tries to compensate by giving me a nice car and a good life.He pays for my apartment and tries to help me out,I can't really say he is a huge jerk because he has gotten a lot better after I explain to him how his behavior affected me as a child. My dad just couldn't give me life advice because he doesn't really understand people if that makes sense.My father shaped who I am as a person today and whether it was due to his autism or not doesn't really matter. A child doesn't know that his dad potentially has autism,all he knows is that the man doesn't show empathy and maybe I subconsciously tried to emulate him.Nowadays he is pretty passive but it is still hard as hell to relate to the guy.He doesn't really get as defensive as he used to because I think he has learned with age that things aren't always cut and dry. I know that I lack empathy but I can read body language subconsciously.My family is of latin American background so our cultural norms are different. I feel like In America when parents find out little billy has autism they just let their son use autism as an excuse for inappropriate behaviors.The user that posted that BS about my dad shooting his own flesh,or that sexual abuse victims are at fault really rubbed me the wrong way.When people say well autistic people are people and people can be good or bad,I can't say I necessarily agree with them. No neurotypical person fantasizes about killing people,or sees killing others as a justifiable way of solving problems.If a person thinks about killing,they are simply not neurotypicals.So we can't really say normal people think about killing others because if the person thinks about killing others than they are no longer normal. Not all killers are autistic(most aren't) but ALL killers are NOT neurotypicals. There is always an underlying condition.


You keep equating autism/Asperger's with a lack of empathy. ASD is not about a lack of empathy--people who think that lack of empathy and autism are related suffer from a lack of correct information about autism.


http://www.autism-help.org/story-adult-empathy.htm

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/as ... heory-mind

I am not saying that autistic people are lacking empathy like a sociopath because I know that is not the case,but if you can't read body language,can't read facial expressions,can't read non verbal communication than you CANNOT feel empathy.I do think autistic people feel sympathy,but sympathy and empathy are too completely different things. How can you put yourself in someone else's shoes if someone has no theory of mind? I am not blaming anyone here or casting aspies as uncaring,but the truth of the matter is that redefining empathy doesn't change what it actually conveys.


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01 Mar 2016, 9:43 pm

I think people with autism can have empathy if they have enough information about what is going on with the other person or the situation.


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