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GarTog
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22 Apr 2016, 3:55 am

Humanity is a spectrum and we are part of that - all aspects needed IMO and we are lesser without the diversity.
Like the Doers/Thinkers split - if everyone is Doing they miss the big picture and stave to death when things change, if everyone is Thinking they miss the fact there is no food and starve to death...



Ettina
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22 Apr 2016, 9:31 am

Aristophanes wrote:
this is why "lone wolves" are on average 12% larger than pack alphas.


Where did you get that data? Because it's not accurate at all. Lone wolves are typically starving and undernourished, surviving on scavenging because they're unable to hunt without packmates.

No wolf strikes out on their own deliberately. A lone wolf has typically been kicked out, either because the pack grew too large, or because they didn't follow the social rules of the pack (for example playing too roughly with the cubs and risking injuring them). Lone wolves are often desperate to rejoin their old pack or a new one, because both survival and breeding opportunities depend on being in a pack.

Lone wolves aren't the 'independent free spirits' of the wolves. They're the 'homeless street people'.



Aristophanes
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22 Apr 2016, 10:04 am

Ettina wrote:
Aristophanes wrote:
this is why "lone wolves" are on average 12% larger than pack alphas.


Where did you get that data? Because it's not accurate at all. Lone wolves are typically starving and undernourished, surviving on scavenging because they're unable to hunt without packmates.

No wolf strikes out on their own deliberately. A lone wolf has typically been kicked out, either because the pack grew too large, or because they didn't follow the social rules of the pack (for example playing too roughly with the cubs and risking injuring them). Lone wolves are often desperate to rejoin their old pack or a new one, because both survival and breeding opportunities depend on being in a pack.

Lone wolves aren't the 'independent free spirits' of the wolves. They're the 'homeless street people'.


From Wikipedia:
Some wolves will simply remain lone wolves; as such, these lone wolves may be stronger, more aggressive and far more dangerous than the average wolf that is a member of a pack. However, lone wolves have difficulty hunting, as wolves’ favorite prey, large ungulates, are nearly impossible for a single wolf to bring down alone. Instead, lone wolves will generally hunt smaller animals and scavenge carrion.

12% is from the Journal of Nature circa 2004-5, don't have time to go sifting at the moment, but I'll look it up this evening. The meme that a lone wolf has been kicked out is misleading. All wolves leave the pack as adolescents-- the lone wolf chooses not to rejoin or form a pack. Their size increase is due to not having to share with the other wolves. And that's aside from actually watching an alpha back down to a lone wolf because the pack itself left him out to dry-- funniest s**t ever.



Jacoby
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22 Apr 2016, 10:16 am

My life is hard, I'm not the next step in anything. No.



CockneyRebel
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22 Apr 2016, 10:34 am

I don't think that we're a step ahead or behind evolution. I think that we're a part of the natural human continuum.


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22 Apr 2016, 1:38 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
We're neither a step forward or a step back.

We are merely variations on a general theme.



Absolutely!


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Aristophanes
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22 Apr 2016, 2:51 pm

@Ettina. I was off by a decade, the article was 1994, not 2004 and I can't get access because I'm no longer in college, thus no account with the journal, lol. That being said, here's the link to the article that makes the claim in case you have access: Link. Since I cannot quote and thus verify the statistic I will withdraw it, but not the underlying premise.

To support the underlying premise here's some other links that highlight the misinformation about wolf packs that keep getting regurgitated in popular media:

Video
The guy here was attacked by a wolf he was rearing. That's kind of unimportant, but the video he has highlights the point-- a single wolf takes down a much larger prey animal without the need of the pack.

Isle Royale
Isle Royal is an island off of Lake Superior, it's as remote as one can get and the ecosystem there features a predator/prey relationship between wolves and moose, with no other species cluttering the data. It's as close as one can get to studying wildlife in "lab" type conditions. (Yellowstone gets a lot of wolf attention due to the government reintroducing grey wolves there about 2 decades ago, but it's actually quite poor to use for study of wolf behavior because the majority of wolves there have been tainted by captivity and the environment is new to them).

A quote from the article:

Quote:
It was long thought that wolves live in packs so they could kill their prey, like moose, which are much larger than wolves. But, Isle Royale wolves showed us that even a lone wolf can kill a moose. Later, it was thought that larger packs were more efficient at killing large prey. This also turned out to be not quite right. Decades of observations on Isle Royale wolves showed, quite surprisingly, that as pack size grows larger, each wolf in the pack gets less food. Although they kill moose a bit more frequently, larger packs have more mouths to feed.


If you need social approval from the hierarchy, here's L. David Mech, considered one of the top wolf experts in the world.

Outmoded notion of the alpha wolf
No need to read, in the short video at the bottom Mech himself describes it, and how he was a part of misrepresenting "alpha" in culture. Obviously he could use some work on body posture, but that's beside the point, lol.

Wolves: Behavior, Ecology, and Conservation

And some quotes from the book for good measure (only have access to two chapters online, but the entire book is really good), bold emphasis mine:

Page 10
Quote:
As indicated above, most wolves disperse from their natural packs. Unless it assumes a breeding position within the pack, which is rare, any wolf born into a pack will leave it.


Page 7
Quote:
If large numbers of wolves were necessary to prey on large ungulates, it would be difficult for lone wolves and pairs to survive and produce the offspring that enlarge the pack. In fact, large numbers of wolves are not necessary to kill large prey. Single wolves have been recorded to kill even the largest of the wolf's major prey species, including adult moose (Cowan 1947; A. Bjärvall and E. Isakson, personal communication; Thurber and Peterson 1993, Mech et al. 1998), muskox (Gray 1970), and bison (D. Dragon, cited in Carbyn et al. 1993).


Page 9
Quote:
It certainly seems reasonable that, at least to some extent, hunting in groups would increase hunting efficiency even if no cooperative strategy were used. Multiple hunters, even if inept or inexperienced, would seem to yield greater sensing, chasing, restricting, attacking, and killing power than single hunters.

However, possibly offsetting this advantage is the fact that multiple hunters must also share the proceeds (Brown 1982). This and numerous other theoretical and empirical considerations have led some workers to the conclusion that "cooperative hunting is more often a consequence of gregariousness than its evolutionary cause" (Packer and Ruttan, 1988, 189).

A good test of the hypothesis that larger groups of wolves are more efficient at hunting or killing prey is to determine amount of food obtained per wolf for packs of various sizes. On Isle Royale during 1959-1961, the pack of about fifteen wolves mentioned above preyed on moose, but in 1961, when the pack split into two about half the time, the amount of food obtained was greater than during the previous 2 years, when the pack hunted as a unit (Mech 1966b). Similarly, lone wolves in Minnesota killed more prey per wolf than a pack of five (Mech and Frenzel 1971a), and pairs killed more prey per wolf than packs (Fritts and Mech 1981; Ballard et al. 1987, 1997; Thurber and Peterson 1993; Hayes et al. 2000).

When this hypothesis was tested more rigorously with wolves and moose on Isle Royale, the result was the same: the larger the pack, the less food obtained per wolf (fig 1.1). Synthesizing data from many studies including most wolf prey gave the same result (Schmidt and Mech 1997).


edit: grammar, probably a lot more too, but I gotta get back to work.



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22 Apr 2016, 3:32 pm

No more than Usain Bolt being the next step to becoming cheetahs.

I find the idea to be unworthy of true consideration.

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One person even claimed contradictory things: that aspergers came from Neandethals, AND that aspergers is the next stage in evolution (thats its BOTH a step back AND step forward).
You just didn't the Cromag-Times Editorial that revealed that Neanderthals were actually sophisticated time travelers trying to jump start the evolutionary process by seducing the brow-challenged Cro-Magnons. Their philosophy was "No Brows, No Brains!." It must be true because it was written in stone.

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I do find it interesting that many animals have what would be considered Autistic behaviors if they were observed in humans.
I saw a documentary about animals one time claiming they had no 'awareness' because if one of them was shot, the rest just 'keep eating' as the other died. It was said that the deer would 'show no reaction.' Well, how about no reactions that humans knew to look for at that time. As a person who grew up around animals of all types, that just struck me as arrogant and stupid. Keep in mind this was about 30 or so years ago. All I could think about is that animals are probably in tune with the cycle of life. They live with it every living moment. Unless it is a danger sign they recognize, it's not going to spook them if one of them dies 'quietly'. By 'Quietly', I mean without something startling like lightning, predator or some such assault on their senses. To them it's probably, "Well, Frank just died. We lost three last week...drought is getting bad."

In the wild, those are the things are prevalent.

It is documented in humans as well. In war, famine or pestilence people just get inured to the violence and death. Fire fight from a foxhole? Frank got his head blown off next to you. It's done...time for lunch...Ya lost three last week, the ambushes are getting bad.


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lostonearth35
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22 Apr 2016, 3:41 pm

Oh yes, those hateful asps! They are venomous and dangerous snakes, and therefore cruel and evil. We should just kill all the nasty little serpents and make them into burgers. Mmm, tastes like chicken!

Sorry, I couldn't resist after reading the title. :)



zkydz
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22 Apr 2016, 3:49 pm

lostonearth35 wrote:
Oh yes, those hateful asps! They are venomous and dangerous snakes, and therefore cruel and evil. We should just kill all the nasty little serpents and make them into burgers. Mmm, tastes like chicken!

Sorry, I couldn't resist after reading the title. :)
As I was reading this post, all I could think of was, "Nice Belt," LOL


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22 Apr 2016, 6:08 pm

No, but I do entertain the idea that narcissists are a step backwards on the evolutionary path of humanity.



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22 Apr 2016, 6:10 pm

Narcissists merely are self-absorbed people. They are hard to get along with.

I wouldn't go so far as to place them within the context of evolutionary regression, though.



Syd
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22 Apr 2016, 6:14 pm

A tongue-in-cheek thread deserves the same type of responses.



kraftiekortie
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22 Apr 2016, 6:17 pm

Indeed, you're right!

And that's a nice bird for your avatar.



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22 Apr 2016, 8:00 pm

ArielsSong wrote:
Ha, I've entertained the idea both ways - that we could be a step forward, or a step back.

Long, long ago, humans were solitary creatures. Then, we evolved to become more sociable and to seek to group together. Arguably, we're what remains of the solitary human that never gained that ability to connect and group.

But then, I definitely think the world is working more in our favour at the moment. I don't think we're more advanced, but I do think that modern societies are changing to need, require and involve less face-to-face and social interaction, and that some NT people will struggle with that whilst it suits many autistic people quite well. So arguably we'll see a time in the not-too-distant future when people with autism actually might be amongst the strongest and most suited to society. Possibly.


Humans were never solitary. It is biologically impossible. Virtually all humans have mothers who care for them for extended periods of time. If humans were solitary we would never have developed speech.


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22 Apr 2016, 8:02 pm

AJisHere wrote:
I've seen these sorts of attitudes before. I find them absolutely disgusting.


The "Chosen People" meme is more dangerous than disgusting. It fits right in with egotism and an oversize notion of self esteem. I think the meme should never be taken seriously as it leads to sad and unfortunate results.


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