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ConceptuallyCurious
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28 Dec 2016, 10:23 am

EzraS wrote:
The problem as I understand it is that they administer a huge cocktail of vaccines in a huge syringe all at once into a little baby.

I always scoffed at the idea of a link between vaccines and autism, until I found out about that. Now I'm not so sure.


There are significant amounts of research that shows that there is no harm caused by the current vaccination schedule in the UK and I haven't seen any rigorous literature reviews suggesting any different in the US. The vaccines given to babies aren't live, so it's not the same as loading them up with tons of viruses.

It is dangerous to delay the vaccinations because babies are the prime age group for life treating and limiting effects from the illnesses the vaccines protect against.


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28 Dec 2016, 10:39 am

Roll the dice and take your chances about no vaccines.

A family by me is burying a kid who died from measles this week.

The child was not medically fragile before he/she became ill. The family is in the higher socioeconomic bracket. College educated parents.

But the good thing is the child didn't develop autism. Managed to make it to age 4 without a stim in sight. Woo and Hoo! Take that FDA, the Medico and Pharma complex. That showed THEM.

I don't care anymore let the anti vaxers westle with Uncle Darwin and see who wins.

Humanity has become so spoiled and stupid, we deserve to die out.

Enjoy.

https://youtu.be/QgpfNScEd3M



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28 Dec 2016, 10:54 am

I'm pretty sure a lot of snobbery is because some autistics are offended at the idea that people want to find ways to prevent autism.

In fact I find a lot of those in that pro-vaccine "cult" are really proud of having autism. Not saying it's a bad thing, just an observation.


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ASPartOfMe
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28 Dec 2016, 11:50 am

Hypothetically lets say that thermasol and mass vaccinations do cause autism, big pharma has been covering it up, and it finally gets exposed in a way that can not be ignored.

People are complaining adults are being told they are not autistic now. A common mantra of the "anti vaxx" movement is "where are the 50 something autistics?" or "there were no autistics when I was growing up" . Under this scenario, this will be considered validated. If this scenario plays out, say goodbye to the Nuerodiversity movement as anything but a small fringe crackpot movement considered harmful charlatans like the anti vaxx movement is looked at now. The idea of "difference" will be considered invalidated. Autistics will be considered as not human or not fully human, something akin to mutants. The idea that "autism" has kidnapped a perfectly normal person would be considered validated. There would be no legitimate reason not to cure autism or genetically engineer it out of existence.

I understand fully that scientists would never say that, there would be caveats galore and the facts would only partially back the above up. It will not matter, facts do not matter in politics, emotional needs do. The Autism scientists would have been proven to be spectacularly wrong and part of a conspiracy to cover up for big pharma and thus would have little to no credibility.


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28 Dec 2016, 1:22 pm

I believe some vaccines cause autism. In 2000 (when I was about 9 or 10) all the kids at my school had to have a vaccination for some type of Meninjitis. But a special needs professional phoned my mum up the day before and told her not to let me have the vaccination because it could "make my Asperger's worse", probably meaning I would turn into a non-verbal autistic kid or something. So I didn't have the vaccination.

I never actually knew if it was actually true or not. I mean, most 9-year-olds with mild Asperger's aren't diagnosed, so if they had the vaccination, would they suddenly have turned into an autistic kid? :?


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28 Dec 2016, 4:49 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Hypothetically lets say that thermasol and mass vaccinations do cause autism, big pharma has been covering it up, and it finally gets exposed in a way that can not be ignored.

People are complaining adults are being told they are not autistic now. A common mantra of the "anti vaxx" movement is "where are the 50 something autistics?" or "there were no autistics when I was growing up" . Under this scenario, this will be considered validated. If this scenario plays out, say goodbye to the Nuerodiversity movement as anything but a small fringe crackpot movement considered harmful charlatans like the anti vaxx movement is looked at now. The idea of "difference" will be considered invalidated. Autistics will be considered as not human or not fully human, something akin to mutants. The idea that "autism" has kidnapped a perfectly normal person would be considered validated. There would be no legitimate reason not to cure autism or genetically engineer it out of existence.

I understand fully that scientists would never say that, there would be caveats galore and the facts would only partially back the above up. It will not matter, facts do not matter in politics, emotional needs do. The Autism scientists would have been proven to be spectacularly wrong and part of a conspiracy to cover up for big pharma and thus would have little to no credibility.


What if there's some truth in that? Should they hide the truth just for the sake of Aspie identity or whatever?


https://healthimpactnews.com/2014/cdc-d ... to-austim/



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28 Dec 2016, 5:03 pm

It's also just been linked to vitamin-D deficiency in utero.

It's almost like it wants a reason to happen :lol:


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28 Dec 2016, 5:10 pm

I have no problem accepting that there might be several factors which can lead to autism. Genetics, birth trauma, chemical exposure - it might have been a different root cause for each of us. For any medication, there will always be a small percentage of people who react badly, and it makes sense to me that some people will react badly to vaccines.

That being said, I do think it's better to vaccinate and maybe(?) risk a tiny chance of autism, than to not vaccinate, and risk a scientifically proven, much larger chance of even worse problems.



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28 Dec 2016, 5:15 pm

smudge wrote:
I'm pretty sure a lot of snobbery is because some autistics are offended at the idea that people want to find ways to prevent autism.

In fact I find a lot of those in that pro-vaccine "cult" are really proud of having autism. Not saying it's a bad thing, just an observation.


No, the fact is that enormous amounts of funding have produced huge cohort sizes studies which show no link. There is an absence studies with large cohorts AND with good methodology (necessary to avoid confounds) and repeatable results (this is a sign of good science) which find that ASD is higher in vaccinated children than vaccinated. Nor are there studies which shows children develop autism immediately after vaccinations which show rates higher than coincidence.

I am pro-vaccine and would give up ASD in a heartbeat. I would much we stopped wasting funding on paranoia that has been proven false and instead used it to research treatment, etiology and support.

Besides, most anti-vax wackos are in America.

In the event that in an extremely rare circumstance that gene expression was switched on per se by a life saving vaccines, that person and their family would have far more use in a well child with treatment for ASD.


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Also "probable" dyspraxia/DCD and dyslexia.

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28 Dec 2016, 5:19 pm

If the anti-vaxxers actually lived in the pre-vaccination era, I would say they would change their minds about not taking vaccines.

Imagine living in a world where diseases like smallpox, whooping cough, diphtheria, and that ilk were rife? A world where one would find constant quarantine notices on your neighbors' doors, and "X's" written on doors of houses where somebody died.

Even in the 1950's, they would close swimming pools for weeks (in the hottest part of the summer) because of polio.



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28 Dec 2016, 5:23 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Hypothetically lets say that thermasol and mass vaccinations do cause autism, big pharma has been covering it up, and it finally gets exposed in a way that can not be ignored.

People are complaining adults are being told they are not autistic now. A common mantra of the "anti vaxx" movement is "where are the 50 something autistics?" or "there were no autistics when I was growing up" . Under this scenario, this will be considered validated. If this scenario plays out, say goodbye to the Nuerodiversity movement as anything but a small fringe crackpot movement considered harmful charlatans like the anti vaxx movement is looked at now. The idea of "difference" will be considered invalidated. Autistics will be considered as not human or not fully human, something akin to mutants. The idea that "autism" has kidnapped a perfectly normal person would be considered validated. There would be no legitimate reason not to cure autism or genetically engineer it out of existence.

I understand fully that scientists would never say that, there would be caveats galore and the facts would only partially back the above up. It will not matter, facts do not matter in politics, emotional needs do. The Autism scientists would have been proven to be spectacularly wrong and part of a conspiracy to cover up for big pharma and thus would have little to no credibility.


Interesting idea. The thought that it could just be got rid of is a little scary. Like a major part of me could be eradicated in future children, and people would think it was a good thing.


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28 Dec 2016, 5:29 pm

ConceptuallyCurious wrote:
smudge wrote:
I'm pretty sure a lot of snobbery is because some autistics are offended at the idea that people want to find ways to prevent autism.

In fact I find a lot of those in that pro-vaccine "cult" are really proud of having autism. Not saying it's a bad thing, just an observation.


No, the fact is that enormous amounts of funding have produced huge cohort sizes studies which show no link. There is an absence studies with large cohorts AND with good methodology (necessary to avoid confounds) and repeatable results (this is a sign of good science) which find that ASD is higher in vaccinated children than vaccinated. Nor are there studies which shows children develop autism immediately after vaccinations which show rates higher than coincidence.

I am pro-vaccine and would give up ASD in a heartbeat. I would much we stopped wasting funding on paranoia that has been proven false and instead used it to research treatment, etiology and support.


Fair dos, though you may be one of the exceptions.

People are also saying though that the vaccines might make an already sensitive person worse. Are there studies for that?

ConceptuallyCurious wrote:
Besides, most anti-vax wackos are in America.


:lol:


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28 Dec 2016, 5:40 pm

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
HappySpaceInvader wrote:
How does this explain:

1. Why the vast majority of vaccinated people are not autistic

2. Why there are autistic people that have never been vaccinated.

Surely the presence of either of the above immediately negates the possibility of a link?


You cannot negate whole body of researches by a simple analysis like the above;

Why not?

Perhaps I'm stupid, but as I understand it, the claim is that vaccines cause autism. That is, you give someone a (specific) vaccine or combination of vaccines, they develop autism. If that's not what happens, then vaccines do not cause autism.

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
even if some vaccines cause autism that doesn't necessarily mean it's the sole factor causing it.

Given the number of people — millions — who have been vaccinated and did not develop autism, the contribution of vaccines obviously has to be very small, possibly even zero.

This is almost on the level of arguing that there's a link between drinking coffee and killing, since cities with a larger number of coffee shops also tend to have more murders. The problem is that both variables — number of coffee shops and number of murders — are functions of a third variable: population; the more people you have, the more coffee shops they need, the more crimes you get.



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28 Dec 2016, 5:58 pm

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
Hypothetically lets say that thermasol and mass vaccinations do cause autism, big pharma has been covering it up, and it finally gets exposed in a way that can not be ignored.

People are complaining adults are being told they are not autistic now. A common mantra of the "anti vaxx" movement is "where are the 50 something autistics?" or "there were no autistics when I was growing up" . Under this scenario, this will be considered validated. If this scenario plays out, say goodbye to the Nuerodiversity movement as anything but a small fringe crackpot movement considered harmful charlatans like the anti vaxx movement is looked at now. The idea of "difference" will be considered invalidated. Autistics will be considered as not human or not fully human, something akin to mutants. The idea that "autism" has kidnapped a perfectly normal person would be considered validated. There would be no legitimate reason not to cure autism or genetically engineer it out of existence.

I understand fully that scientists would never say that, there would be caveats galore and the facts would only partially back the above up. It will not matter, facts do not matter in politics, emotional needs do. The Autism scientists would have been proven to be spectacularly wrong and part of a conspiracy to cover up for big pharma and thus would have little to no credibility.


What if there's some truth in that? Should they hide the truth just for the sake of Aspie identity or whatever?


https://healthimpactnews.com/2014/cdc-d ... to-austim/


Like I wrote if this "truth" comes out, what will be perceived is a very exaggerated version of the truth that will have catastrophic consequences for those on the spectrum. Be careful what you wish for.


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28 Dec 2016, 6:08 pm

I'm sure that this point has been made already, but I wanted to chuck my hat in to the ring regardless.

I think this all can be reduced down to bias. A site like HealthImpactNews (for example) has a strong "alternative medicine"/anti-pharm editorial direction, so will subject work that supports its agenda to less scrutiny than that which opposes it. Many autism/vaccine studies that report positive findings have large conflicts of interest that lean on research to produce certain results. This can be further confounded by poor scientific method and/or confirmation bias within the studies themselves, not to mention poor conclusions being drawn.

The answer is that it would be nice if we were all suitably equipped to critically appraise things presented as fact (something any research study worth a damn will not do, they merely comment on how strong a link appears to be) and be mindful of what agendas are at play when we read things condensed down and presented as being news.


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28 Dec 2016, 6:35 pm

smudge wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
Hypothetically lets say that thermasol and mass vaccinations do cause autism, big pharma has been covering it up, and it finally gets exposed in a way that can not be ignored.

People are complaining adults are being told they are not autistic now. A common mantra of the "anti vaxx" movement is "where are the 50 something autistics?" or "there were no autistics when I was growing up" . Under this scenario, this will be considered validated. If this scenario plays out, say goodbye to the Nuerodiversity movement as anything but a small fringe crackpot movement considered harmful charlatans like the anti vaxx movement is looked at now. The idea of "difference" will be considered invalidated. Autistics will be considered as not human or not fully human, something akin to mutants. The idea that "autism" has kidnapped a perfectly normal person would be considered validated. There would be no legitimate reason not to cure autism or genetically engineer it out of existence.

I understand fully that scientists would never say that, there would be caveats galore and the facts would only partially back the above up. It will not matter, facts do not matter in politics, emotional needs do. The Autism scientists would have been proven to be spectacularly wrong and part of a conspiracy to cover up for big pharma and thus would have little to no credibility.


Interesting idea. The thought that it could just be got rid of is a little scary. Like a major part of me could be eradicated in future children, and people would think it was a good thing.


Plenty of people do think that way now in America at least. The whole notion of autistics being "recovered" is based on this.
Recovery » Generation Rescue | Jenny McCarthy's Autism Organization

Is It Possible to Recover from Autism? New research says yes, but how to spark recovery remains a mystery
Quote:
When I was training to be a clinical psychologist, telling parents that their child had autism was a regular part of my job. Now that I'm a parent, I understand better the pained expression that came over their faces as they contemplated this news. Among the many questions taking shape in their minds, I can imagine the one looming largest: Could their child ever be like other children? - Scientific American


Now the "cures" are in the hands of people like MMR salesman. If the scenario I described plays out the desperation that make parents give their children "bleach enemas" will have a focus, revert the deliberate poisoning of our children at all costs, jail those treasonous ND activists and fellow travelers complicit in the plot to poison our children's brains and weaken America.


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