Does this count as being on the spectrum?

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You should read up on Atypical autism, PDD-NOS as well. Those are inside the autistic spectrum, and have different diagnosis criterias.

You didn't specify your age, but some autistic traits go away with time for some people while others persist (i still don't like to be touched or screaming babies at the age of 43). When i got my diagnosis both of my parents were interviewed about how i was as a kid. So, how you are now (if you're an adult) may not show the entire story.

http://apps.who.int/classifications/icd ... /en#/F84.1

I think we can rule out atypical autism.

I've also seen "atypical autism" (a very unofficial "diagnosis") used for people of "normal" intelligence" who don't quite fit the criteria for autism (like PDD-NOS, which was a diagnosis under the DSM-IV, but is not an entity under the DSM-V).

Itsme82: Aside from an understanding of yourself, what purpose would a determination that you are autistic serve? Would there a be a tangible benefit derived, aside from an understanding of yourself?

Of course, I can understand that you are seeking to find an explanation for why you are "different" from other people. I, myself, am fortunate that I was diagnosed with autism/brain injury when I was a preschooler. So I know why I am "different."

It's very official if it's right there in the ICD 10. In the US it may be used interchangeable since the DSM IV never had a separate diagnosis for "atypical autism", but in most other countries the ICD 10 is used where atypical autism (F84.1) and PDD-NOS (F84.9) are different diagnoses.

I stand corrected.

The benefit would be that I would know what resources to seek out to solve or find something for at least some of my issues. I absolutely need to fix enough of the issues if I want to have a real hope for existing in a community in a workplace and other places. And also in terms of relationship building though one on one dynamics are usually not a real problem (more just the aloofness aspect of BAP, nothing else is a problem there).

Of course if a version of AS isn't what fits me then I'll go and try to figure out what else does. So far, BAP fits best though it's only borderline in terms of meeting the criteria. And, its subscales don't entirely cover my issues. Tho' you mentioned some of my issues are just a lower ability for feeling out people - so that one isn't specific to AS at all. If that lower ability alone can lead to impairment in social interaction, then ok. Let me know if you meant that, please.

For that, if you have time, also please see what I wrote below to Ichinin's post - in this same post.

As for better understanding of myself, that's also important, yes. It for example does help in realizing what expectations placed on me by others are realistic and which ones are not.




I'm in my early 30s. None of the stuff I'm dealing with got easier just yet. For example those things in the diagnostic criteria that I highlighted.

I never had these sensory problems btw. Just those social/people related issues that I described to a degree. If my earlier posts were TLDR then a very short summary:

It's about how I seem to have serious difficulties trying to socially integrate myself and I always had the difficulties right from the start of middle school - kindergarten was easier though I was pretty aloof there too.
1) Aloofness aspect (as per BAP, or "qualitative impairment in social interaction" for DSM-IV): I too easily get oblivious of connecting with people or how to even connect to people.
2) I don't know what this aspect is: Easily too much bluntness, missing subtler expressions, certain (many) jokes and their dynamics, and some broader social cues regarding (the more advanced kind of) diplomacy. Basic stuff is fine tho' and I never had to learn the basic stuff, it comes from instinct.

Would you know what to call 2)? It doesn't seem to fit autism criteria on "qualitative impairments in communication" or BAP's pragmatic language issues as per the BAP test. Let me know if in your opinion it does fit some milder version of that or something else entirely...


PDD-NOS apparently doesn't fit me if it's always one of these three categories:

- A high-functioning group (around 25 percent) whose symptoms largely overlap with that of Asperger syndrome, but who differ in terms of having a lag in language development and mild cognitive impairment. (Asperger syndrome does not generally involve speech delay or cognitive impairment).
- A second group (around 25 percent) whose symptoms more closely resemble those of autistic disorder, but do not fully meet all its diagnostic signs and symptoms.
- A third group (around 50 percent) who meet all the diagnostic criteria for autistic disorder, but whose stereotypical and repetitive behaviors are noticeably mild.

The 1st category doesn't fit because no such lag in language development etc.
The 2nd category doesn't fit because if I resemble anything AS then closer to the asperger than to the autistic version - let me know if I misinterpreted that though.
The 3rd category doesn't fit because I don't have the autistic stereotypical and repetitive behaviors at all. Some bit of OCD I do have but I don't show it to people (fully aware it would be weird if I did show it to anyone) and it's not like the stimming or whatever, just plain OCD out of a little subconscious anxiety.

BAS apparently requires less criteria than PDD-NOS, yeah? Just the criteria for the rigid and for the aloof personality, which is already milder than the DSM IV criteria. (I don't fit the pragmatic language criteria, the basics of that are easy enough for me to score low enough on that scale in the BAP tests.)

Last edited by itsme82 on 03 Apr 2017, 6:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Checked out atypical autism after this note that it differs from PDD-NOS.

"A pervasive developmental disorder that differs from autism in terms either of age of onset or of failure to fulfil all three sets of diagnostic criteria. Thus, abnormal and/or impaired development becomes manifest for the first time only after age 3 years; and/or there are insufficient demonstrable abnormalities in one or two of the three areas of psychopathology required for the diagnosis of autism (namely, reciprocal social interactions, communication, and restrictive, stereotyped, repetitive behaviour) in spite of characteristic abnormalities in the other area(s). Atypical autism arises most often in profoundly ret*d individuals whose very low level of functioning provides little scope for exhibition of the specific deviant behaviours required for the diagnosis of autism; it also occurs in individuals with a severe specific developmental disorder of receptive language. Atypical autism thus constitutes a meaningfully separate condition from autism."

The general "criteria" fits me. The examples don't fit me.

I've also heard it used for people of "normal" intelligence who don't exhibit many of the "classic" signs of even Asperger's. I've heard it used as sort of a name for a more "subtle" form of autism.

Difficulty in "feeling out" people is a component of Asperger's/autism---but it can happen within nonautistic individuals, too.

Do any people within your family exhibit autistic symptoms? Are they diagnosed with autism? There is a genetic component to autism, though it's not absolutely genetic.

I've been meaning to ask: how are you "functioning" at this point? Are you employed at the moment?

Ah, so what would make the difference between individuals with this "atypical autism" and between totally nonautistic individuals who do have difficulty with feeling out people?




Nope, no one was ever diagnosed with it. I would be the closest to it in the family.




Not very well functioning due to this. I did remote/online work earlier.

Did you ever go to college/university? If so, what did you study?

Do you have an especial "special interest?"

If you have skills in typing, Excel, and Word, you could probably work "Temp." There are many clerical jobs around. Or, you could try the civil service. I am a civil service worker.

I did, majored in a theoretical subject. Couldn't visit most classes though because that's when I had the most severe stress from being around people. (Not simply social anxiety, I no longer had plain social anxiety anyway, this type of stress went beyond that.) Luckily I could get away with not visiting too much (had the excuse of less than perfect hearing), and just going in for exams mostly.

(That extra stress around people is gone, this was a long time ago, that was the worst part of all of it maybe)




I'm always intensely focused on one area and these could be less common interests but I would always use my understanding I developed on the interest for the good of the (online) community with the same interest. So for example, a more common one is sports training, to get better in sport and then I helped others too with training plans, etc. Online, until I got s**t behind my back about being "weird". In that sports community and another sports community was even worse.

Does that count as "special interest"?




I worked in IT before (the remote job stuff), lack of expertise is not really the issue here, but I have had enough of always starting clean plate and then get s**t later with people in these online communities (and before that in school), etc. I got too affected by that after a while, so dealing with depression about it now before I can go back to working. And I want to fix some of these issues.


Any thoughts on what would make the difference between individuals with this "atypical autism" and between totally nonautistic individuals who do have difficulty with feeling out people? (If we also assume no stereotyped behaviours and no difficulties in the very basic communication skills and aloofness isn't too extreme.) The "special interests" stuff? Is that why you were asking about it?

Having a "special interest" which interferes with everyday life is a component of Asperger's/autism in some people.

Did you major in philosophy?

I'm sorry you went through so much social anxiety. Did it get to the point where you disliked people in general?

What sort of crap did people give you online?

(Warning, this might be TLDR... let me know if too much for you. I'll bold the most important parts, also where I had questions that you might be able to help with. No need to read everything for that.)


Oh so I read up on that now. Apparently I don't have a "special interest" if it's an interest that is:

- disconnected from social goals/society's reference frame
- used as shelter from the world instead
- used as stimulation


Basically I do have strong concentration skills and incredible perseverance for my goals and do like to analyze much deeper than most people so that does result in an intense focus with an obsessive quality in my analyzing. I always only focus on one thing with that intensity, I cannot focus on more than one thing. I focus as long as I need to to reach my goals. My goals are placed in a social context however. Even when it's just online communities... but I would have them IRL too back in school.

Not used as a shelter from the entire world either, no, it actually always ties me into the world with the goals. Otoh, my task-based orientation when around people could be construed as a defense against too much people related stuff. But that task orientation is completely normal and functional otherwise. It doesn't have to get in the way. It can, though, when it turns into the hyperrational mode that I described in my TLDR OP. That's when it goes beyond normal functionality, too.

Ignoring that hyperrational mode thing for now, the above means my interests don't qualify as "special interest". The only one that would ever qualify was in my teenager years and I grew out of it. That one was entirely disconnected from any kind of social reference and was fully used in place of befriending and hanging out with people in school. And it did look weird and I knew not to reveal it to others.


I'll add that it's not really for stimulation either. Also the things people list as special interests, many of them seem just playing with things that would bore me without a real goal. That doesn't mean I think it's silly or anything. It's just, I can't relate, this is an "alien" mode of functioning to me. In SQ tests, they do ask about this sort of interest, classifying various things of the world and looking at systems in everything. I have a very light interest in this by default. E.g. I can wonder about the rail networks, sure, but it's pretty rare, and only for a couple seconds, only if nothing else is going on.

(Btw, I score higher than NT females in SQ, but slightly lower than NT males and definitely lower than AS females. And I do score as very low in EQ, as low as AS females.)


The other thing I figure may be different is, I read AS people have to learn all the social rules manually. Never by automatic experience? I can't imagine learning all the rules of dynamic social interaction manually. I just can't, something is alien about that approach to me. Like, eye contact is natural to me and a lot of other things like that. I do have basic rules for polite behaviour, that's all really for rules.

So for engaging social interaction itself, I have the basics down from instinct/automatic experience. The rest well... I can either learn it by experiencing it or not learn it at all, even if I try to experience it. (But definitely not by making all those forced rules.) But. I could never get to experience more when that social anxiety got in the way right away as a teenager. That social anxiety was because of my weak ability to read social cues though... Do you categorize the latter as just not being good at feeling people out, unrelated to AS, yeah? Let me know please.


Now another word on the "hyperrational mode". It happens when I get too oblivious about social interaction, if for a long enough time period I haven't spent enough time around people who do involve me socially in stuff. It also happens when I need the answer right away to something and it probably does overload people without intending to do so. The latter is a bad habit I picked up after high school. I only do it online though. I'm naturally aware of more boundaries regarding this IRL. This mode is the most suspiciously close to AS stuff. I'm not sure if it isn't just some other kind of compulsion though.




No, a discipline in academic science/research. I realized that I'm not the office scientist type, though. So I'm thinking about what else I can possibly do with that degree for a career. (I hope I do end up using the degree in some way.) But I have to solve some of my people related issues before I can get to work again.

What made you think philosophy?
(I did almost consider it once actually for a secondary major but when I saw the history of philosophy course, it was too much for me. I'm not that umm... not that philosophical, not to that degree.)




Thanks for the sympathy.

No, that was never a reaction from me before, I didn't think of actively disliking people.

Though recently... someone threw s**t at me while pretending to be nice by supposedly just presenting their expectations about me (another online place). And I somehow miraculously managed to see some bit of the social dynamics of how the way she did that made me have less chance to fit in and solve the misunderstanding with people. She was basically s**t stirring getting in the way of that. Then I somehow recalled all similar instances of that in the past where I didn't even know that s**t stirring was going on. Instead I was struggling to deal with those people in that "hyperrational" way. And so I finally saw clearly and I managed to get so angry that I did actually start to hate people for a short time.




E.g.

- "ganging up" on me, by trying to make me their target of crap jokes etc, all of them at once
- "ganging up" on me, by accusing me of negative intentions, distorting what actually was happening
- talking behind my back about their problems with me, never confronting me
- throwing passive aggressive jabs, again never confronting me before blowing up finally when too late

I learned very recently that supposedly all this happened because people think it's rude to talk in a direct (but still polite) way, e.g. by sending a private message and telling me what bothers them a bit and asking me about my actual intentions. Then I'd have a chance to figure out what sounded too blunt or whatever the problem is and learn over time to make it nicer sounding or whatever else needs to be paid attention to.

But yeah. Talking to me in a direct but polite and constructive way privately is more rude apparently than accusing me later in an unconstructive way openly in public.

I had similar (though not the exact same) issues back in school too. E.g. in high school... I was just too aloof there while being the best student. So they thought I looked down on them. In fact, I was too aloof because when my initial attempts to build friendships didn't work, I just retreated and didn't try to bother anyone. But I was always ready to engage happily if someone initiated for a short time (this happened rarely though).

Please try to remember that the Internet is the Internet. It's not real life. People tend to take the Internet too seriously.

People have a tendency to be more nasty on the Internet--because they have the veil of anonymity. They don't have to be nasty in person. Frequently, the problem lies in the people "ganging up" rather than with you.

I don't take "ganging up" on the Internet as serious as "ganging up" in person.

I appreciate you trying to help but this is not what I asked help with. I'll explain the situation a little bit more though:

This is a real problem, it's not "just the internet". The sports community for example had an IRL part to it, meetings etc. I really would not like to keep ignoring the problem. Ignoring it is NOT the solution for me. But I would not like to discuss this part in this thread, maybe I'll open another thread for it.


So, I'm not sure if you have input on this but if you (or anyone else) do, I'd appreciate it: I read AS people have to learn all the social rules manually. Never by automatic experience?

Social skills don't come naturally to many people with Aspergers. They must learn it consciously, "manually."

For most non-autistic people, social skills are learned in an instinctual, almost unconscious sense. They are an intrinsic part of such a person's makeup.