The Sally Anne Test

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Call me stupid, but I don't understand *why* AS kids would be expected to think that Sally would look for the marble in Anne's box...have I missed something?

I read about this test a while ago. I can certainly pass the first-order test, but I have NO Idea what Sally thinks Anne thinks, etc. I can't even begin to guess!

I am fairly certain I would have failed the simple test as a very young child...I used to think that my experience was universal, which led to such situations as me being hungry and wondering why nobody was giving me food! I'm not sure when I started to realize that my mind had "borders"...I'm sure it was after age 8, though. Even now I find myself sometimes mixing autobiographical knowledge and common knowledge. It's strange because I feel as if I am so rational and logical, and I KNOW that I am not "transmitting" my thoughts...it's just that I cannot seem to attribute mental states to others very well.

Its to do with theory of mind. Supposedly because the child knows the true location of the marble, they assume Sally also does.

First of all I have had to read it 4 times just to
realize that sally and anne are dolls, not people!

Second, how do dolls move???????

Third, if doll's could think(Hmmmmm-Fascinating!)
...Hmmmm? I guess "in her box since routine?????

Smart be I-Yoda Ghosthunter, Hmmmm-unnnnnn-
Hmmmmmm, but befundled be the force on this
one!

Blah!! !! !! !! !! !! !! !! !! !! !! Bah-Hum-Bug!! !! !! !! !! !! !!

Aha! Thanks, Sanity! And *I* thought it was because the kids were already cynical and misanthropic (like me, duh), and assumed that Anne was just naturally untrustworthy and conniving (like most people), and couldn't wait to get her filthy mitts on Sally's beloved, beautiful marble! Wow, how wrong I was!

The first-order test is trivial, especially if one knows that this is a "tricky question". The second-order test can be solved by noting that Anne was observing the same events as the person taking the test, and therefore both have the same knowledge, so their assumption about Sally should be identical. This effectively reduces the problem to the one in the first-order test.

oh! duh! because anne thinks it's still in her basket. or sally does! I don't know!

More thorough explanation of the solution to the second-order test:

Let's assume that we have already established that Sally would look for the marble in the place where she left it (i.e. the basket). The only logical reason for this is that Sally thinks that the marble is in the basket. Apart from Sally, there are 2 other participants in the scene: Anne and we as an observer. What we established that Sally thinks is our knowledge, therefore we can say that we think that Sally thinks that marble is in the basket [statement A]. We have observed Anne's actions without restriction, so we have the same knowledge as her about what happened in the room when Sally was outside. This means that our knowledge is the same as Anne's, and this is a two-way equivalence. Assuming that Anne's thought algorithms are the same as ours, Anne must think the same as we do about Sally. So we can substitute "we" by "Anne" in statement A, and it will still be true. The result: Anne thinks that Sally thinks that marble is in the basket. This is the answer to the test.

I guess. but my mind immediatly said "In the Box" because we forget that it is not where WE would look knowing that the marble was moved, but where the doll would look, not knowing.

It isn't aimed at adults, thats t he point, any 4 or 5 year old should say that Sally will look in her basket for the marble, any AS person over the age of about 11 or 12 shoulld also say that, but an AS person at 4, or 5 or 6 or 7 or 8 or 9 or 10 will say that she looks in Annes basket.

And AS children over the age of 11 should be stumped buy the second question, as apparently are many adult AS people, ie: Me.

What does Anne think that Sally thinks? I honestly can't construct an answer to that question, I have tried to and I know that at my age (35) I should 'know' the answer, I should be able to provide an answer that my 'peers' would come up with, but I can't even begin and it's freaking me out.

And there it is, I read your answer and now my brain can stop hurting...

The thing is I can pass that answer on if asked the question and look like an NT, but I can't get to it myself.

Unless Anne has AS, in which case she thinks that Sally thinks its in the box.

Or instead Anne may think that Sally thinks that she is fat.

Another possibility is that Sally has AS, and Anne is an NT bully. In that case Sally would anticipate Anne's move and would look straight in the box. Who would then think what?

After hearing the second question, my mind just simply stopped working. All the thoughts froze, and I pondered for a few seconds knowing that I probably would never get it. I still don't, sort of. I get it, but I don't. I suppose I'll sleep on it.

But what if Sally knew Anne was untrustworthy, and left the basket with the marble unshaperoned on purpose. She knew Anne would steal it. And when Sally came back into the room she looked into Anne's box to see the marble, and she had her proof that Anne was Evil!

Man, who knew dolls were so devious.