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BTDT
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01 Jan 2018, 1:29 pm

The point of going to a really good college is to learn critical thinking and skills so that you can learn whatever skills you need as the world changes. For instance, mathematical proofs, if properly understood and constructed, can save a tremendous amount of effort mucking around with trial and error. Of course, most people don't need to have this level of knowledge.

A good example is the National Electrical Code. It is a great example of something that is extremely useful. Buildings don't burn down the way the used to 100 years ago. All you need is for electricians to properly follow the code, and for the people living in them to not do something stupid that violates the code. Yeah, the second part is harder, but such is life. Smart people are needed to put the code together.



ladyelaine
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01 Jan 2018, 1:44 pm

Aristophanes wrote:
I would argue economics are more the cause than college. The fact is that while jobs have recovered from the economic collapse of last decade, wages are still lagging behind, and many people with a job are finding it harder to make ends meet than they did a decade ago. The answer to that problem is generally more 'communal' living, i.e. using one's family as support since it helps defray costs for the whole group. One thing that needs to be noted about people living in 'extended adolescence' is that the vast majority of them don't want to be in that situation, it's a situation of last resort.

As for the value of college there's not much there, education is valuable, but college per se is not. I didn't really get much out of college, I'm a self starting learner with an appetite for information, the classes moved slow and I got just as bored there as I did in high school. When I was younger I thought everyone was like that and those that weren't learning were just being lazy, I've since come to realize I'm the anomaly, not them. But, that's why I make the differentiation between college/trade school and education: one is an institution, the other is an ability. One can be educated without going to school, and schooling is no guarantee someone is educated. Our society conflates the two as one, but they're actually two completely different things.

I also find trade schools to be vastly under sold for their value, and the professions resulting from said schools (electrician, welder, mechanic, etc.) to be vastly under appreciated for the skills they provide. When I was going to college I studied electrical standards in my spare time, as well as plumbing (laugh away, fixing your own sink or toilet is not only satisfying, it's a giant cost saver, as well as providing hands on experience with fluid dynamics) and someday when I have time I'd like to learn welding. Each one of those professions are a necessity in the modern world, so much so that if we eliminated any one of them as a profession our modern world would come to a screeching halt. And yet, there are ad writers making 10x what a welder does and deriding said welder for his/her poor choice of profession, when all the ad writer does is sprinkle sugar on BS and considers it more 'productive'. It's pretty ridiculous if you ask me.


Wages aren't what they should be. Job security is not what it used to be either. People used to be able to work the same job for 30 years and now people get laid off from their jobs frequently.

Colleges aren't worth much if everyone is supposed to get them. I have known people with masters degrees that don't even know the capital of New Mexico or don't know hardly anything about the disabilities that their students have. Some these people have the worst grammar and spelling too.

People need to learn to value trade schools and vocational training. Plumbers are important and they can make good money. We need people to kill bugs, collect our trash, build furniture, and so many other things that are undervalued by society.



QuantumChemist
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01 Jan 2018, 1:48 pm

You get out of higher education what you put into it. Yes, many people go there thinking it is an extended party time, instead of studying or working toward their future career goals. And what do they get from doing that? They have to pay for the party some time later, while they lost out on educational opportunities that they could have had. Even if their parents foot the financial bill, they still lose out.



ladyelaine
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01 Jan 2018, 3:03 pm

BTDT wrote:
The point of going to a really good college is to learn critical thinking and skills so that you can learn whatever skills you need as the world changes. For instance, mathematical proofs, if properly understood and constructed, can save a tremendous amount of effort mucking around with trial and error. Of course, most people don't need to have this level of knowledge.

A good example is the National Electrical Code. It is a great example of something that is extremely useful. Buildings don't burn down the way the used to 100 years ago. All you need is for electricians to properly follow the code, and for the people living in them to not do something stupid that violates the code. Yeah, the second part is harder, but such is life. Smart people are needed to put the code together.


Even still, there are college educated people who still lack critical thinking skills. Those who can handle college should do it. We shouldn't make everyone go to college. Electricians are very important and people take them for granted. They need extensive training to learn their trade and the code. They can make good money too.



ladyelaine
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01 Jan 2018, 3:17 pm

QuantumChemist wrote:
You get out of higher education what you put into it. Yes, many people go there thinking it is an extended party time, instead of studying or working toward their future career goals. And what do they get from doing that? They have to pay for the party some time later, while they lost out on educational opportunities that they could have had. Even if their parents foot the financial bill, they still lose out.


Society loses out too. These people that chose to party endlessly and barely pass their classes are not prepared for the jobs they can get with their degrees. These people often continue to be irresponsible and make poor choices.



Aristophanes
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01 Jan 2018, 3:22 pm

ladyelaine wrote:
QuantumChemist wrote:
You get out of higher education what you put into it. Yes, many people go there thinking it is an extended party time, instead of studying or working toward their future career goals. And what do they get from doing that? They have to pay for the party some time later, while they lost out on educational opportunities that they could have had. Even if their parents foot the financial bill, they still lose out.


Society loses out too. These people that chose to party endlessly and barely pass their classes are not prepared for the jobs they can get with their degrees. These people often continue to be irresponsible and make poor choices.


And as noted earlier in the thread: they're more likely to get hired and promoted in the first place, because in college they created a large social network with all kinds of connections to jobs. We're in an era where who you know is more important than what you know. It's an ominous sign for the future.



ladyelaine
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01 Jan 2018, 3:34 pm

Aristophanes wrote:
ladyelaine wrote:
QuantumChemist wrote:
You get out of higher education what you put into it. Yes, many people go there thinking it is an extended party time, instead of studying or working toward their future career goals. And what do they get from doing that? They have to pay for the party some time later, while they lost out on educational opportunities that they could have had. Even if their parents foot the financial bill, they still lose out.


Society loses out too. These people that chose to party endlessly and barely pass their classes are not prepared for the jobs they can get with their degrees. These people often continue to be irresponsible and make poor choices.


And as noted earlier in the thread: they're more likely to get hired and promoted in the first place, because in college they created a large social network with all kinds of connections to jobs. We're in an era where who you know is more important than what you know. It's an ominous sign for the future.


I know. I hate that the world is like that these days. I would prefer to hire people for their ability to do the job not the ability to socialize non stop. Work shouldn't be about socializing constantly.



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01 Jan 2018, 4:23 pm

When your toilet overflows or your circuit breaker fails.....are you going to call a college graduate or a tradesman?

These tradesmen/women are crucial to our day to day lives.



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01 Jan 2018, 5:11 pm

So what if you actually need an actual college degree or credit of some kind to pursue your special interests?


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Aristophanes
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01 Jan 2018, 5:30 pm

MagicMeerkat wrote:
So what if you actually need an actual college degree or credit of some kind to pursue your special interests?

Well, if you're looking at a career that requires a degree, then yes you're most likely going to need the degree, but if it's just a special interest you can learn virtually anything you want on your own. Get some information online to familiarize yourself with the subject. Then hit up a college website and find the syllabus for the courses that are tied to said subject and copy the 'required texts' part of the syllabus for the books you'll need to read. Then hit up a library for the books (most normal libraries won't have said books on the shelf, but through library loan transfers they'll be able to get them), or purchase them on your own (buy used from amazon or the like, textbooks are F'ing expensive).

Edit: you'll get everything you need out of the books, where the professor you won't be getting with this route is useful is if you have problems comprehending the texts. Luckily there's the internet again, if you have questions that need answered try Reddit, if no one there jumps in look for a forum that's geared towards your interest and ask there. This is actually one of the most used forums I've been on in the last decade, it's a plateauing (possibly dying) medium, so it make take a week or two for someone to reply.



BTDT
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01 Jan 2018, 6:16 pm

In Connecticut a lot of people can't pass the certification tests to be able to do work as an electrician. A lot of people fail to get the top license.



MagicMeerkat
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02 Jan 2018, 9:54 am

Aristophanes wrote:
MagicMeerkat wrote:
So what if you actually need an actual college degree or credit of some kind to pursue your special interests?

Well, if you're looking at a career that requires a degree, then yes you're most likely going to need the degree, but if it's just a special interest you can learn virtually anything you want on your own. Get some information online to familiarize yourself with the subject. Then hit up a college website and find the syllabus for the courses that are tied to said subject and copy the 'required texts' part of the syllabus for the books you'll need to read. Then hit up a library for the books (most normal libraries won't have said books on the shelf, but through library loan transfers they'll be able to get them), or purchase them on your own (buy used from amazon or the like, textbooks are F'ing expensive).

Edit: you'll get everything you need out of the books, where the professor you won't be getting with this route is useful is if you have problems comprehending the texts. Luckily there's the internet again, if you have questions that need answered try Reddit, if no one there jumps in look for a forum that's geared towards your interest and ask there. This is actually one of the most used forums I've been on in the last decade, it's a plateauing (possibly dying) medium, so it make take a week or two for someone to reply.


Okay then, what if getting said degree IS the special interest or required for special interested. No one's going to let you be a legit doctor/veterinarian without one.


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02 Jan 2018, 10:05 am

Slow your roll. Nobody is suggesting that attending college is bad idea. It,was said that it isn't suitable for everyone for a variety of reasons.



Aristophanes
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02 Jan 2018, 10:50 am

MagicMeerkat wrote:
Aristophanes wrote:
MagicMeerkat wrote:
So what if you actually need an actual college degree or credit of some kind to pursue your special interests?

Well, if you're looking at a career that requires a degree, then yes you're most likely going to need the degree, but if it's just a special interest you can learn virtually anything you want on your own. Get some information online to familiarize yourself with the subject. Then hit up a college website and find the syllabus for the courses that are tied to said subject and copy the 'required texts' part of the syllabus for the books you'll need to read. Then hit up a library for the books (most normal libraries won't have said books on the shelf, but through library loan transfers they'll be able to get them), or purchase them on your own (buy used from amazon or the like, textbooks are F'ing expensive).

Edit: you'll get everything you need out of the books, where the professor you won't be getting with this route is useful is if you have problems comprehending the texts. Luckily there's the internet again, if you have questions that need answered try Reddit, if no one there jumps in look for a forum that's geared towards your interest and ask there. This is actually one of the most used forums I've been on in the last decade, it's a plateauing (possibly dying) medium, so it make take a week or two for someone to reply.


Okay then, what if getting said degree IS the special interest or required for special interested. No one's going to let you be a legit doctor/veterinarian without one.

Yes, if you want to make a career out of it you're going to need the degree, but if it's just to learn about a special interest you don't need anything but time, effort, and the appropriate texts. Point being, a degree does not equal knowledge, and vice versa.



ladyelaine
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02 Jan 2018, 6:27 pm

HistoryGal wrote:
Slow your roll. Nobody is suggesting that attending college is bad idea. It,was said that it isn't suitable for everyone for a variety of reasons.


That is exactly the point I was trying to make.



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02 Jan 2018, 8:42 pm

I know but others Elaine have poor reading comprehension skills.