Psychiatric Arrogance and Ignorance - from the horse's mouth

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Raleigh
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12 May 2018, 7:44 pm

League_Girl wrote:
Raleigh wrote:
I'm having real trouble understanding the issue here. :|



The psychiatrist automatically didn't believe the man when he said he was a famous scientist and won so many awards and wrote several papers and published them. So he assumed he was delusional. Why did he assume delusion when he could have assumed other things? He could have assumed narcissism, he could have assumed pathological lying, he could have assumed the man is so depressed and has so much low self esteem he has created a fantasy world for himself and now believes his own lie.

He could have simply looked him up online. Famous people will be online. I am only assuming Carl is a psyodium (sorry, don't remember the word) name he was using. Carl was lucky he was still in contact with his family and had a supportive family or otherwise he would have gotten misdiagnosed as schizophrenic because the doctor couldn't be bothered to use Google.

So he jumped to conclusions.
Then he did his research and found his conclusion was incorrect.
Then he adds a little "moral of the story" sentence at the end which urges people to do their research.
So, he could have misdiagnosed, but he didn't.
He even asked for physical evidence to further satisfy himself of the findings.
That doesn't seem arrogant or ignorant to me.
That seems like a logical and effective process.


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League_Girl
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12 May 2018, 8:00 pm

Raleigh wrote:
League_Girl wrote:
Raleigh wrote:
I'm having real trouble understanding the issue here. :|



The psychiatrist automatically didn't believe the man when he said he was a famous scientist and won so many awards and wrote several papers and published them. So he assumed he was delusional. Why did he assume delusion when he could have assumed other things? He could have assumed narcissism, he could have assumed pathological lying, he could have assumed the man is so depressed and has so much low self esteem he has created a fantasy world for himself and now believes his own lie.

He could have simply looked him up online. Famous people will be online. I am only assuming Carl is a psyodium (sorry, don't remember the word) name he was using. Carl was lucky he was still in contact with his family and had a supportive family or otherwise he would have gotten misdiagnosed as schizophrenic because the doctor couldn't be bothered to use Google.

So he jumped to conclusions.
Then he did his research and found his conclusion was incorrect.
Then he adds a little "moral of the story" sentence at the end which urges people to do their research.
So, he could have misdiagnosed, but he didn't.
He even asked for physical evidence to further satisfy himself of the findings.
That doesn't seem arrogant or ignorant to me.
That seems like a logical and effective process.




I think B19's issue is she believes Carl had autism and the psychiatrist didn't diagnose him with it and said he just had depression instead totally missing his problem.


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Raleigh
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12 May 2018, 8:39 pm

Severe depression can lead to someone being jobless, friendless and spiritless without autism being involved.
It's just as much an assumption for B19 to label him autistic than it is for the psychiatrist to label him schizophrenic.

I don't mean to be horrible.
Maybe I am, but it's what I see.
Sorry, B19.


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B19
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12 May 2018, 8:49 pm

He presented with the following signs and symptoms:

Couldn't make eye contact
Monotone voice
Depression
Gifted in science to an exceptional degree but unable to cope with the pressures of success
Unable to make friends/no friends
Unable to emotionally modulate
Anxiety
Unable to perform self care (burnout? executive dysfunction?)

These are quite strong indications to possible AS, and he had no real symptoms of delusional thinking at all.

He was very quickly designated to a diagnosis that fitted the psychiatrist's prejudices, not what the client was telling him. Then the psychiatrist, corrected of his pre-judgment by the man's family, went on to mistake a co-condition/symptom as if it were the total diagnosis, in a very self-congratulatory and boasting way. Having delivered two misdiagnoses, he probably went on to miss the big picture afterward too.

The client was not at the centre of this horrible example, the ego of the psychiatrist was.



Raleigh
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12 May 2018, 9:00 pm

He may well be autistic, we don't know.
We also don't know what happened in subsequent visits.


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EzraS
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12 May 2018, 9:33 pm

I don't think Carl is a real person. Too much info was given out to trace. 45 years old in 2012 would mean he was born around 1967. So there's a name, year of birth, location (Baltimore) and nominated for a Nobel Prize. That makes the Carl in the story too easy to recognize. Especially by those who know him or know about him.



Raleigh
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12 May 2018, 9:34 pm

B19 wrote:
The client was not at the centre of this horrible example, the ego of the psychiatrist was.

I cannot make out how he's egotistical either.
He does not seem to be bignoting himself.
He admits his mistake.

Maybe I am having a more autistic day than usual.
It just bugs me when I can't see it.
I'm bugged.

Sorry, I'll leave now and stop being all disagreeable.


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naturalplastic
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13 May 2018, 12:15 am

EzraS wrote:
I don't think Carl is a real person. Too much info was given out to trace. 45 years old in 2012 would mean he was born around 1967. So there's a name, year of birth, location (Baltimore) and nominated for a Nobel Prize. That makes the Carl in the story too easy to recognize. Especially by those who know him or know about him.

The book was published in 2012. But the author might've been reminiscing about something that happened 20 years earlier.



EzraS
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13 May 2018, 12:26 am

naturalplastic wrote:
EzraS wrote:
I don't think Carl is a real person. Too much info was given out to trace. 45 years old in 2012 would mean he was born around 1967. So there's a name, year of birth, location (Baltimore) and nominated for a Nobel Prize. That makes the Carl in the story too easy to recognize. Especially by those who know him or know about him.

The book was published in 2012. But the author might've been reminiscing about something that happened 20 years earlier.


Ah so. I was thinking the author said it took place in 2012. If it had been a lot longer ago than that, that would explain why the author didn't just look him up on the net.



b9
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13 May 2018, 1:38 am

B19 wrote:
He presented with the following signs and symptoms:

Couldn't make eye contact
Monotone voice
Depression
Gifted in science to an exceptional degree but unable to cope with the pressures of success
Unable to make friends/no friends
Unable to emotionally modulate
Anxiety
Unable to perform self care (burnout? executive dysfunction?)

These are quite strong indications to possible AS, and he had no real symptoms of delusional thinking at all.


one can not establish that unless they plot the person's surroundings. there was no indication in the psych's account that he had "closed the case" (as it were).
he phoned the parents before coming to a conclusion.

he did not just dismiss the guy as being a sufferer of grandiose delusions, although, understandably, he suspected it.
the psych did say that the carl fellows assertion was not a delusion, and altered his initial impression.

i do not see how it was in any way condemnable. the psyche checked out the truth and found it.



B19 wrote:
He was very quickly designated to a diagnosis that fitted the psychiatrist's prejudices, not what the client was telling him. Then the psychiatrist, corrected of his pre-judgment by the man's family, went on to mistake a co-condition/symptom as if it were the total diagnosis, in a very self-congratulatory and boasting way. Having delivered two misdiagnoses, he probably went on to miss the big picture afterward too.

The client was not at the centre of this horrible example, the ego of the psychiatrist was.


yeah well, you are the one who sees this with altruistic angst.



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13 May 2018, 4:18 am

Raleigh wrote:
B19 wrote:
The client was not at the centre of this horrible example, the ego of the psychiatrist was.

I cannot make out how he's egotistical either.
He does not seem to be bignoting himself.
He admits his mistake.

Maybe I am having a more autistic day than usual.
It just bugs me when I can't see it.
I'm bugged.

Sorry, I'll leave now and stop being all disagreeable.


Mr Raleigh, you are allowed to disagree.

I think there are a lot of assumptions being made here.

Not just the psychiatrist who was able to correct his thinking but others here too.

It is a basic error to make assumptions about clients which is why we have supervision and reflect upon work with people. We consult our peer practitioners and other means too.

There are quite a few practitioners who have written about their past mistakes and I applaud them for being so brave.

It doesn't matter what line of work you are in - everyone makes mistakes and there are good and not so good in any profession. We are all human.

I appreciate your line of questioning, just like B19 does, so please do not stop. It makes for further reflection and wisdom my friend.



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13 May 2018, 6:01 am

Sounds like the typical arrogance that seems to come with a lot of professionals to me.

League_Girl wrote:
Why didn't he look this guy up? Surely his name would be on the internet if he were famous and his writings too.
That was my thought exactly. If a patient claims such a thing, look it up. Just assuming the guy is making it up is really arrogant. It's a simple thing to check.

ASPartOfMe wrote:
It is best to see a psychologist, not a psychiatrist because psychiatrists are trained to see mental illness and prescribe drugs. They often miss all sorts of developmental, neurological, and genetic conditions.

I don't think highly of psychology either. I did a one year course in high school on it and it conformed to me what I already assumed, that there is a lot of BS in it.
There is also too much well babbling for my taste.

Psychiatry is too into just prescribing drugs, but it's also the one of the two professions that delve into real brain differences.


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13 May 2018, 6:10 am

From my experience of life people who avoid eye contact are usually on the autistic spectrum. There are also victims of sexual abuse for example but generally autistic people avoid eye contact more than any other kind of person.

Also the monotone voice is another giveaway autistic symptom. Most depressed people still maintain ordinary vocal range.

I think you were right b19 to contact the psychiatrist. It seems odd and ignorant he didn't even mention it could have been Asperger's or autism that Carl had.



naturalplastic
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13 May 2018, 6:38 am

I think that B19 is jumping to conclusions about him jumping to conclusions. The story coulda happened in the pre internet Nineties. The narrator may have meant to go down to the library and look him up in "Who's Who in Physics" next day, but just left all of that crap out just make his anecdote into a tighter fable with a tighter point.

Though I must admit that (paradoxically) I maybe overcompensating for my own prejudice against psychiatrists. :lol:

My parents sent me to one for a couple or three years back in the Sixties when I was in grade school. Nothing bad resulted, but he was just comically worthless, and seeing him was just a total waist of time. Later therapists they sent me to, with only the less prestigious "psychologist" as job titles, were more effective.



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13 May 2018, 10:14 am

It would make more sense now if the story took place back in the 1990's or in the 1980's. I don't know how old the doctor is and how long he had been practicing and when he graduated. B19 would be too hard on the guy if the Carl story happened that long ago.

Also I still would have no way of looking this Carl person up based on the given information.


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13 May 2018, 2:53 pm

Raleigh wrote:
Severe depression can lead to someone being jobless, friendless and spiritless without autism being involved.
It's just as much an assumption for B19 to label him autistic than it is for the psychiatrist to label him schizophrenic.

I don't mean to be horrible.
Maybe I am, but it's what I see.
Sorry, B19.


Raleigh, I don't think anyone is horrible for having a difference of opinion. I appreciate your input and differing points of view provide opportunities for better understanding.


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