‘mother hen friends’ (or father?)

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graceksjp
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11 Jan 2019, 11:20 am

ToughDiamond wrote:
graceksjp wrote:
Problem with authority figures? Hmmm interesting...
Doesnt everyone technically get 'bossed around' by their parents? I know my mom micromanages the hell out of every aspect of my life. There's not really such thing as an 'independent child' (not one with normal parents that is) because every child has to follow their parents rules.
And arent humans natural followers? Some people are born leaders sure, but isnt it basic human instinct to follow someone else since we are social creatures who live in groups with a leading authority figure? (same structure as seen in several animal species?) Isnt this easily seen in the structure of todays society?
So arent we naturally set up through life to defer to someone stronger, my authoritative, more knowledgable, more experiences, etc in all aspects of life unless we are that person in a certain situation?
There's absolutely nothing wrong with being independent! I just think its curious that you mentioned 'problems with authority figures' when it feels so much like people are natural followers.

What you assert there sounds about right to me. I don't see anything there that runs counter to anything I said, but it seems to be written as if you disagree with it. Can you clarify?


It wasnt meant to disagree. Just....kind of a stream of consciousness. Essentially just me rambling about my thoughts on how people view authority figures. I found it interesting that you pointed out that many people with ASD have a problem with authority figures as I feel like that goes against most humans natural instincts. Even the most independent of people still tend to defer to others in certain situations-like their boss or parents for example. I wonder if its true for many individuals on WP that they feel like they have an issue with authority and if so I wonder why. Is it something innate about them? Or is it something that changed over time- perhaps after experiencing a certain event? And if so, do all those events have something in common, or is it a trait that ASDers are naturally more susceptible to?


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blooiejagwa
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11 Jan 2019, 12:58 pm

^ wow you are so thoughtful !


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blooiejagwa
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11 Jan 2019, 12:59 pm

ToughDiamond wrote:
blooiejagwa wrote:
What u are saying may make sense fr ur case. It sounds logical but wd never apply to me.

I’m actually quite envious that u can get by without constant guidance and instruction n reassurance. I have not been able to do that ever in my life. The times ppl left me to myself and there were less structured hierarchies and clearcut guidance were the most distressing times.

In fact without the ‘bossy’ but well intended (which is the main difference between those that help n those tht hinder)/caring ppl i wd be homeless n dead in a ditch somewhere.

So i’m happy u and some other ppl who responded here seem to be fine without it n dont understand how it is. As that means u have more freedom n ability to get by

I can see how that would make sense in the case of somebody with more severe autism than I have, if the parts of the spectrum responsible for successful independent living are impaired enough. I think in my case a lot of it was down to being able to hang onto a reasonably suitable job. But that was sheer torture for most of my life.


Absolutely i do not mean to diminish the complexities of ur struggles i guess my jealousy was speaking


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ToughDiamond
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11 Jan 2019, 8:25 pm

graceksjp wrote:
It wasnt meant to disagree. Just....kind of a stream of consciousness. Essentially just me rambling about my thoughts on how people view authority figures. I found it interesting that you pointed out that many people with ASD have a problem with authority figures as I feel like that goes against most humans natural instincts. Even the most independent of people still tend to defer to others in certain situations-like their boss or parents for example. I wonder if its true for many individuals on WP that they feel like they have an issue with authority and if so I wonder why. Is it something innate about them? Or is it something that changed over time- perhaps after experiencing a certain event? And if so, do all those events have something in common, or is it a trait that ASDers are naturally more susceptible to?

OK, I sometimes do that too, I'll say a few things and people think I'm arguing against their point of view.

Certainly deference to authority is (to me) surprisingly strong in a lot of NTs, though anarchism, insurrection, the use of the pejorative terms "sheeple," "jumped up" etc. really aren't unique to the autistic mind. Authoritarianism and authorities certainly have their critics. Robin Hood is a hero to many people.
(continued........)



ToughDiamond
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11 Jan 2019, 8:25 pm

(.......continued)
I'm still not sure whether hierarchy does more harm than good or whether it's the other way round. I think many people develop a suspicion of authority because their guardians let them down which makes them mindful of the fact that authority is fallible. I read something once that said "our children start by loving and trusting us. When they grow up, if we're lucky, they forgive us." Adolescence is also often characterised by a rebellion phase when the teenager strives to wrest control from the guardians and establish themselves as a person in their own right. Perhaps, though, a big factor is just the asocial nature of many ASDers. The idea seems to be that ASDers will have little problem obeying an authority if the command makes sense to them, but not otherwise. In my own case it's quite correct that I defer to people only when I can personally see the point, even if the only point is that the authority might harm me if I disobey, in which case I'll obey, but then I tend to feel that if the boot should ever be on the other foot then I'll make sure they rue the day they violated my autonomy. It strikes me that autonomy may be very central to the functioning of many ASDers and that may be part of the explanation as to why we're so averse to being bossed round without good reason.

I don't know much about neurology and I've no idea how brain wiring can lead to the difference. I've often observed that I feel more like a cat (who seems very reluctant to obey anybody) than a dog (who can be trained to go to a lot of trouble to please the trainer), and I know that dogs hunt in packs while cats are solitary hunters. That points towards some kind of evolutionary explanation, and maybe somebody who knew about the brain wiring of those animals could see something in the differences that pointed to a brain wiring explanation.

Sorry about having to split my post into 2 parts - somebody's put a very buggy anti-spamming program called Cloudflare into WP, and as a result this is the only way I can post sometimes.



graceksjp
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11 Jan 2019, 8:34 pm

ToughDiamond wrote:
(.......continued)
I'm still not sure whether hierarchy does more harm than good or whether it's the other way round. I think many people develop a suspicion of authority because their guardians let them down which makes them mindful of the fact that authority is fallible. I read something once that said "our children start by loving and trusting us. When they grow up, if we're lucky, they forgive us." Adolescence is also often characterised by a rebellion phase when the teenager strives to wrest control from the guardians and establish themselves as a person in their own right. Perhaps, though, a big factor is just the asocial nature of many ASDers. The idea seems to be that ASDers will have little problem obeying an authority if the command makes sense to them, but not otherwise. In my own case it's quite correct that I defer to people only when I can personally see the point, even if the only point is that the authority might harm me if I disobey, in which case I'll obey, but then I tend to feel that if the boot should ever be on the other foot then I'll make sure they rue the day they violated my autonomy. It strikes me that autonomy may be very central to the functioning of many ASDers and that may be part of the explanation as to why we're so averse to being bossed round without good reason.

I don't know much about neurology and I've no idea how brain wiring can lead to the difference. I've often observed that I feel more like a cat (who seems very reluctant to obey anybody) than a dog (who can be trained to go to a lot of trouble to please the trainer), and I know that dogs hunt in packs while cats are solitary hunters. That points towards some kind of evolutionary explanation, and maybe somebody who knew about the brain wiring of those animals could see something in the differences that pointed to a brain wiring explanation.

Sorry about having to split my post into 2 parts - somebody's put a very buggy anti-spamming program called Cloudflare into WP, and as a result this is the only way I can post sometimes.


Ah I thinks I got it now. Why would a logical thinker obey a command that doesnt make any sense in their head? Sounds pretty right for lots of Aspies. My mom essentially runs my life so I think I just grew up with a strong respect for authority. I dont really question someone if they tell me to do something if they're older than me. Kinda like how most children will naturally obey a teacher or parent-even one thats not theirs-because they've been raised to see them as an important authority figure that shouldnt be questioned.


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ToughDiamond
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11 Jan 2019, 11:37 pm

graceksjp wrote:
Ah I thinks I got it now. Why would a logical thinker obey a command that doesnt make any sense in their head? Sounds pretty right for lots of Aspies. My mom essentially runs my life so I think I just grew up with a strong respect for authority. I dont really question someone if they tell me to do something if they're older than me. Kinda like how most children will naturally obey a teacher or parent-even one thats not theirs-because they've been raised to see them as an important authority figure that shouldnt be questioned.

Yes obedience isn't based on logic. I guess small children absorb suggestions uncritically until they have the mental capacity to challenge them, then you might get rebellion or just curiosity, depending on how the suggestions pan out when they're followed. I suppose it's a similar thing with teachers. Younger kids are relatively easy to control, usually. Older ones, not so much, but a lot depends on background and culture. I was astonished when a Patan youth told me how he'd become sick of the restrictions of living with his parents and siblings, and had left and set up home as an independent adult, and said he'd felt much better living that way. As he was living with his parents when we had that conversation, I asked him why he'd gone back, and he just said "my mother came and told me to." He was a fully-fledged adult by UK standards, with a perfect right to live his own life, but his culture didn't see it that way at all.



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13 Jan 2019, 9:35 pm

If smthing doesnt make logical sense even with my ‘mother’ type friends, I wd always go with my own will.

I mean the general comfort of knowing u have a nurturing, caring n non judgemental, sincere friend, .. and becausevthey are sincere n understand me they give me tons of guidance n advice n reassurance bcuz they KNOW i cannot go without it.

I am not like your patan friend at all despite being frm the same culture which makes me think he prob doesnt have asd
I disowned the arbitrary, senseless n baseless parts of my culture n tht in itself was a brave thing to do. I was brainwashed or inexperienced before, but the second i trult realized whay was happening i stepped away.

N it took a ton of work n i fought fr it


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BlueIris24
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04 Feb 2019, 6:52 pm

I really only have 3 friends. None of them I would consider to be mother hens. With that being said, I have had people who don't know me that much act like that towards me, like therapists and stuff. They'll use a soft, motherly voice and call me "honey" or "dear". They'll help me with things without being asked, and I guess treat me like a child. I found it odd at first, but I guess they sense my childlike nature.



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05 Feb 2019, 3:07 am

You just described my life. My best friend is ten years older than me, and is the epitome of a mother hen. I like it from her because it feels safe and reassuring. When my sister, who's four years younger than me tries it though, it's just demeaning and frustrating. She means well, but it rubs me the wrong way.


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MagicKnight
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05 Feb 2019, 9:08 am

I'm sorry if I step into this conversation unannounced to tell bad news but many of the posts in this thread referring to a "mother hen" figure, are actually describing abusive relationships.

Abusive people generally like the kinds they can manipulate, boss around and torture verbally. It's true that many people in this world need a guiding figure around but the friends you are describing don't really sound like the kind who care about you.

I advice you to stay away from those people.



graceksjp
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05 Feb 2019, 7:19 pm

MagicKnight wrote:
I'm sorry if I step into this conversation unannounced to tell bad news but many of the posts in this thread referring to a "mother hen" figure, are actually describing abusive relationships.

Abusive people generally like the kinds they can manipulate, boss around and torture verbally. It's true that many people in this world need a guiding figure around but the friends you are describing don't really sound like the kind who care about you.

I advice you to stay away from those people.


Just curious what made you think that? I thought the majority of people on this thread said the DIDNT have a mother hen friend, and the ones that did sounded to me like they were just some super caring friend.


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blooiejagwa
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05 Feb 2019, 8:08 pm

I know abuse and normal friendship ive had both

The ones I mean are the ones who know i need help esp bcuz i ask fr it constsntly n dont mind guiding n supporting n advising

They r respectful enough to keep their mouths shut unless they know i want their thoughts n guidancd


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