Dealing with people "fake agreeing" with you??

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Jayo
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25 Sep 2020, 8:40 am

adromedanblackhole wrote:
Jayo wrote:
So, how have you guys dealt with it when people "fake agree" with you??
Or do you even recognize when it happens(?)
This is actually an NT behaviour that bothers me (as if there weren't quite a few already!) as if some people abhor assertive communication.
Yes, I can understand in certain situations you "go along to get along", but there have been times where it was genuinely counter-productive for the other person to agree with my viewpoint or request or what-have-you. :(
I suppose they were just sticking to the NT maxim that "up to 90% of communication is nonverbal", and expected me to pick up signals that what I was asking was making them feel uncomfortable, but I didn't b/c to me - as a matter of objective principle - the other person should have the backbone to speak up and disagree. It's not like I'm a very intimidating individual, or a Don Corleone or something of the sort :P

While this sort of "fake agreeing" to save face is, stereotypical speaking, the purview of Asian cultures, it's happened quite a few times IME 8O

Sometimes, I've had to ask the other person "are you sure"? (As if I'm going to be crushed if they disagree with my opinion or idea.) And I've occasionally noticed certain shifts of the eyes or corners of the mouth, the latter being a snicker ESPECIALLY if peers are around :x basically the nonverbal way of saying "yeah, whatever, you weirdo!! what you think or want in the situation doesn't count, b/c you're not all there." :evil:

I did have this more perverse and toxic behaviour from a former housemate who in hindsight was a covert narcissist with PAPD (passive-aggressive personality disorder), so I came to realize HE was the one who was really effed up and had the attitude problem, so I was glad that I detached myself from that situation. It dawned on me later that he'd deliberately agree to things with no intention of following through from the get-go, just to piss people off. :x Of course, we have difficulty sometimes in recognizing those toxic personalities (other more "normal" NTs do too, BTW, but for us it's a greater challenge).

Well, if anyone disagrees with the above, feel free to tell me so :P
Also, would be curious to hear any opinions you have on gender differences as to "fake agreeing" - I personally found that it's a little more common in women but not a whole lot more so. As I have been with some more outspoken females that I've dated. So I don't want to stereotype.


I completely agree in a non-condescending and legitimate way
I too find that the arbitrary rules of social conduct favor a certain sort of cowardice where people feel obligated not to speak their mind whilst showing what they really think and feel in passive ways. It's only a norm because there are more people that have accepted that this is the unspoken agreed upon method of communication. There isn't anything inherently better about communicating this way. Oh how much more efficient the world would be if people just said what they meant.

This is also culturally specific and more of a remnant of the British influence over Western cultures. For instance, in Israel, people will tell you exactly what they are thinking without holding much back. I had lived there a few years and found this somewhat jarring at first and now miss it dearly.


Yeah, true that!! It's as if people in Western countries (including Australia & NZ) are conditioned to "act Japanese" whilst calling the Japanese a "foreign culture" :roll:
That's why I don't understand why folks in the U.S.A. or Canada will say it's odd that a Japanese person will agree with you just to save face, when they display many of the same behaviours!! !!
Maybe it's so burned into their unconscious, that they don't give it a second thought.
Just like back in my early 20s, in the summer of 1997 and pre-diagnosis, I went to some sales seminar and the speaker said "up to 90% of communication is non-verbal" and I was like WTF??! - that made no sense to me, nobody ever told me this... and the other (NT) folks in the room were thinking or saying "oh, right!! I never really thought about that, it was just automatic, but YOU'RE RIGHT!!" 8O
It was this experience, and many others, that I had to string together to ultimately insist on a proper diagnosis - not ADHD or social anxiety as I'd been told by psych "professionals" - and I finally got my Asperger diagnosis in 2001.



adromedanblackhole
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25 Sep 2020, 10:24 am

Jayo wrote:
adromedanblackhole wrote:
Jayo wrote:
So, how have you guys dealt with it when people "fake agree" with you??
Or do you even recognize when it happens(?)
This is actually an NT behaviour that bothers me (as if there weren't quite a few already!) as if some people abhor assertive communication.
Yes, I can understand in certain situations you "go along to get along", but there have been times where it was genuinely counter-productive for the other person to agree with my viewpoint or request or what-have-you. :(
I suppose they were just sticking to the NT maxim that "up to 90% of communication is nonverbal", and expected me to pick up signals that what I was asking was making them feel uncomfortable, but I didn't b/c to me - as a matter of objective principle - the other person should have the backbone to speak up and disagree. It's not like I'm a very intimidating individual, or a Don Corleone or something of the sort :P

While this sort of "fake agreeing" to save face is, stereotypical speaking, the purview of Asian cultures, it's happened quite a few times IME 8O

Sometimes, I've had to ask the other person "are you sure"? (As if I'm going to be crushed if they disagree with my opinion or idea.) And I've occasionally noticed certain shifts of the eyes or corners of the mouth, the latter being a snicker ESPECIALLY if peers are around :x basically the nonverbal way of saying "yeah, whatever, you weirdo!! what you think or want in the situation doesn't count, b/c you're not all there." :evil:

I did have this more perverse and toxic behaviour from a former housemate who in hindsight was a covert narcissist with PAPD (passive-aggressive personality disorder), so I came to realize HE was the one who was really effed up and had the attitude problem, so I was glad that I detached myself from that situation. It dawned on me later that he'd deliberately agree to things with no intention of following through from the get-go, just to piss people off. :x Of course, we have difficulty sometimes in recognizing those toxic personalities (other more "normal" NTs do too, BTW, but for us it's a greater challenge).

Well, if anyone disagrees with the above, feel free to tell me so :P
Also, would be curious to hear any opinions you have on gender differences as to "fake agreeing" - I personally found that it's a little more common in women but not a whole lot more so. As I have been with some more outspoken females that I've dated. So I don't want to stereotype.


I completely agree in a non-condescending and legitimate way
I too find that the arbitrary rules of social conduct favor a certain sort of cowardice where people feel obligated not to speak their mind whilst showing what they really think and feel in passive ways. It's only a norm because there are more people that have accepted that this is the unspoken agreed upon method of communication. There isn't anything inherently better about communicating this way. Oh how much more efficient the world would be if people just said what they meant.

This is also culturally specific and more of a remnant of the British influence over Western cultures. For instance, in Israel, people will tell you exactly what they are thinking without holding much back. I had lived there a few years and found this somewhat jarring at first and now miss it dearly.


Yeah, true that!! It's as if people in Western countries (including Australia & NZ) are conditioned to "act Japanese" whilst calling the Japanese a "foreign culture" :roll:
That's why I don't understand why folks in the U.S.A. or Canada will say it's odd that a Japanese person will agree with you just to save face, when they display many of the same behaviours!! ! !
Maybe it's so burned into their unconscious, that they don't give it a second thought.
Just like back in my early 20s, in the summer of 1997 and pre-diagnosis, I went to some sales seminar and the speaker said "up to 90% of communication is non-verbal" and I was like WTF??! - that made no sense to me, nobody ever told me this... and the other (NT) folks in the room were thinking or saying "oh, right!! I never really thought about that, it was just automatic, but YOU'RE RIGHT!!" 8O
It was this experience, and many others, that I had to string together to ultimately insist on a proper diagnosis - not ADHD or social anxiety as I'd been told by psych "professionals" - and I finally got my Asperger diagnosis in 2001.



So something I've only really started trying to accept is that this "normal wiring" NT people as we call them, perhaps it's just an easier way to read them as hardwired to be more sensitive to disunity and disharmony in their one on one and group encounters with people. It's not that they don't want to speak their mind, it's just they make an unspoken calculation essentially, probably unconsciously, about how their words shape the social dynamic they're in. It's actually very fascinating. I wrote a comment about it on another thread how essentially it's like watching a hive function, unconsciously and unspoken. It's like this supercomputer they're tapped into that helps sort appropriate behavior within a collective of 5+ people, and they can just sense what's right and wrong to the almighty hive. I actually find it very interesting to observe.



Jayo
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25 Sep 2020, 3:02 pm

adromedanblackhole wrote:
Jayo wrote:
adromedanblackhole wrote:
Jayo wrote:
So, how have you guys dealt with it when people "fake agree" with you??
Or do you even recognize when it happens(?)
This is actually an NT behaviour that bothers me (as if there weren't quite a few already!) as if some people abhor assertive communication.
Yes, I can understand in certain situations you "go along to get along", but there have been times where it was genuinely counter-productive for the other person to agree with my viewpoint or request or what-have-you. :(
I suppose they were just sticking to the NT maxim that "up to 90% of communication is nonverbal", and expected me to pick up signals that what I was asking was making them feel uncomfortable, but I didn't b/c to me - as a matter of objective principle - the other person should have the backbone to speak up and disagree. It's not like I'm a very intimidating individual, or a Don Corleone or something of the sort :P

While this sort of "fake agreeing" to save face is, stereotypical speaking, the purview of Asian cultures, it's happened quite a few times IME 8O

Sometimes, I've had to ask the other person "are you sure"? (As if I'm going to be crushed if they disagree with my opinion or idea.) And I've occasionally noticed certain shifts of the eyes or corners of the mouth, the latter being a snicker ESPECIALLY if peers are around :x basically the nonverbal way of saying "yeah, whatever, you weirdo!! what you think or want in the situation doesn't count, b/c you're not all there." :evil:

I did have this more perverse and toxic behaviour from a former housemate who in hindsight was a covert narcissist with PAPD (passive-aggressive personality disorder), so I came to realize HE was the one who was really effed up and had the attitude problem, so I was glad that I detached myself from that situation. It dawned on me later that he'd deliberately agree to things with no intention of following through from the get-go, just to piss people off. :x Of course, we have difficulty sometimes in recognizing those toxic personalities (other more "normal" NTs do too, BTW, but for us it's a greater challenge).

Well, if anyone disagrees with the above, feel free to tell me so :P
Also, would be curious to hear any opinions you have on gender differences as to "fake agreeing" - I personally found that it's a little more common in women but not a whole lot more so. As I have been with some more outspoken females that I've dated. So I don't want to stereotype.


I completely agree in a non-condescending and legitimate way
I too find that the arbitrary rules of social conduct favor a certain sort of cowardice where people feel obligated not to speak their mind whilst showing what they really think and feel in passive ways. It's only a norm because there are more people that have accepted that this is the unspoken agreed upon method of communication. There isn't anything inherently better about communicating this way. Oh how much more efficient the world would be if people just said what they meant.

This is also culturally specific and more of a remnant of the British influence over Western cultures. For instance, in Israel, people will tell you exactly what they are thinking without holding much back. I had lived there a few years and found this somewhat jarring at first and now miss it dearly.


Yeah, true that!! It's as if people in Western countries (including Australia & NZ) are conditioned to "act Japanese" whilst calling the Japanese a "foreign culture" :roll:
That's why I don't understand why folks in the U.S.A. or Canada will say it's odd that a Japanese person will agree with you just to save face, when they display many of the same behaviours!! ! !
Maybe it's so burned into their unconscious, that they don't give it a second thought.
Just like back in my early 20s, in the summer of 1997 and pre-diagnosis, I went to some sales seminar and the speaker said "up to 90% of communication is non-verbal" and I was like WTF??! - that made no sense to me, nobody ever told me this... and the other (NT) folks in the room were thinking or saying "oh, right!! I never really thought about that, it was just automatic, but YOU'RE RIGHT!!" 8O
It was this experience, and many others, that I had to string together to ultimately insist on a proper diagnosis - not ADHD or social anxiety as I'd been told by psych "professionals" - and I finally got my Asperger diagnosis in 2001.



So something I've only really started trying to accept is that this "normal wiring" NT people as we call them, perhaps it's just an easier way to read them as hardwired to be more sensitive to disunity and disharmony in their one on one and group encounters with people. It's not that they don't want to speak their mind, it's just they make an unspoken calculation essentially, probably unconsciously, about how their words shape the social dynamic they're in. It's actually very fascinating. I wrote a comment about it on another thread how essentially it's like watching a hive function, unconsciously and unspoken. It's like this supercomputer they're tapped into that helps sort appropriate behavior within a collective of 5+ people, and they can just sense what's right and wrong to the almighty hive. I actually find it very interesting to observe.


For sure. And that's why when socio-anthropologists talk in terms of "individual" and "collectivist" cultures, I think humans in any given environment are more or less hardwired to be collective in face-to-face group settings, unless it's someone who's deemed "an outsider" (hint: that tends to be US) - while things like different skin colour and sexuality have been more widely condemned as wrong to exclude, there still remains a strong stigma against mental disorders.
Of course, in some settings like office politics which is like a foreign language to ASD/HFA folks like us, somebody "fake agreeing" with us may be more perversely individualistic and giving us disinformation, false hopes, etc., to boost HIS station (b/c it's usually a 'he') - whereas our statement, while bold and direct, may be more with the collective in mind.
Kind of a paradox if you think about it!!



adromedanblackhole
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26 Sep 2020, 1:17 pm

Jayo wrote:
adromedanblackhole wrote:
Jayo wrote:
adromedanblackhole wrote:
Jayo wrote:
So, how have you guys dealt with it when people "fake agree" with you??
Or do you even recognize when it happens(?)
This is actually an NT behaviour that bothers me (as if there weren't quite a few already!) as if some people abhor assertive communication.
Yes, I can understand in certain situations you "go along to get along", but there have been times where it was genuinely counter-productive for the other person to agree with my viewpoint or request or what-have-you. :(
I suppose they were just sticking to the NT maxim that "up to 90% of communication is nonverbal", and expected me to pick up signals that what I was asking was making them feel uncomfortable, but I didn't b/c to me - as a matter of objective principle - the other person should have the backbone to speak up and disagree. It's not like I'm a very intimidating individual, or a Don Corleone or something of the sort :P

While this sort of "fake agreeing" to save face is, stereotypical speaking, the purview of Asian cultures, it's happened quite a few times IME 8O

Sometimes, I've had to ask the other person "are you sure"? (As if I'm going to be crushed if they disagree with my opinion or idea.) And I've occasionally noticed certain shifts of the eyes or corners of the mouth, the latter being a snicker ESPECIALLY if peers are around :x basically the nonverbal way of saying "yeah, whatever, you weirdo!! what you think or want in the situation doesn't count, b/c you're not all there." :evil:

I did have this more perverse and toxic behaviour from a former housemate who in hindsight was a covert narcissist with PAPD (passive-aggressive personality disorder), so I came to realize HE was the one who was really effed up and had the attitude problem, so I was glad that I detached myself from that situation. It dawned on me later that he'd deliberately agree to things with no intention of following through from the get-go, just to piss people off. :x Of course, we have difficulty sometimes in recognizing those toxic personalities (other more "normal" NTs do too, BTW, but for us it's a greater challenge).

Well, if anyone disagrees with the above, feel free to tell me so :P
Also, would be curious to hear any opinions you have on gender differences as to "fake agreeing" - I personally found that it's a little more common in women but not a whole lot more so. As I have been with some more outspoken females that I've dated. So I don't want to stereotype.


I completely agree in a non-condescending and legitimate way
I too find that the arbitrary rules of social conduct favor a certain sort of cowardice where people feel obligated not to speak their mind whilst showing what they really think and feel in passive ways. It's only a norm because there are more people that have accepted that this is the unspoken agreed upon method of communication. There isn't anything inherently better about communicating this way. Oh how much more efficient the world would be if people just said what they meant.

This is also culturally specific and more of a remnant of the British influence over Western cultures. For instance, in Israel, people will tell you exactly what they are thinking without holding much back. I had lived there a few years and found this somewhat jarring at first and now miss it dearly.


Yeah, true that!! It's as if people in Western countries (including Australia & NZ) are conditioned to "act Japanese" whilst calling the Japanese a "foreign culture" :roll:
That's why I don't understand why folks in the U.S.A. or Canada will say it's odd that a Japanese person will agree with you just to save face, when they display many of the same behaviours!! ! !
Maybe it's so burned into their unconscious, that they don't give it a second thought.
Just like back in my early 20s, in the summer of 1997 and pre-diagnosis, I went to some sales seminar and the speaker said "up to 90% of communication is non-verbal" and I was like WTF??! - that made no sense to me, nobody ever told me this... and the other (NT) folks in the room were thinking or saying "oh, right!! I never really thought about that, it was just automatic, but YOU'RE RIGHT!!" 8O
It was this experience, and many others, that I had to string together to ultimately insist on a proper diagnosis - not ADHD or social anxiety as I'd been told by psych "professionals" - and I finally got my Asperger diagnosis in 2001.



So something I've only really started trying to accept is that this "normal wiring" NT people as we call them, perhaps it's just an easier way to read them as hardwired to be more sensitive to disunity and disharmony in their one on one and group encounters with people. It's not that they don't want to speak their mind, it's just they make an unspoken calculation essentially, probably unconsciously, about how their words shape the social dynamic they're in. It's actually very fascinating. I wrote a comment about it on another thread how essentially it's like watching a hive function, unconsciously and unspoken. It's like this supercomputer they're tapped into that helps sort appropriate behavior within a collective of 5+ people, and they can just sense what's right and wrong to the almighty hive. I actually find it very interesting to observe.


For sure. And that's why when socio-anthropologists talk in terms of "individual" and "collectivist" cultures, I think humans in any given environment are more or less hardwired to be collective in face-to-face group settings, unless it's someone who's deemed "an outsider" (hint: that tends to be US) - while things like different skin colour and sexuality have been more widely condemned as wrong to exclude, there still remains a strong stigma against mental disorders.
Of course, in some settings like office politics which is like a foreign language to ASD/HFA folks like us, somebody "fake agreeing" with us may be more perversely individualistic and giving us disinformation, false hopes, etc., to boost HIS station (b/c it's usually a 'he') - whereas our statement, while bold and direct, may be more with the collective in mind.
Kind of a paradox if you think about it!!


Office social dynamics...
I know enough to not openly tell people that I have no idea what it going on, but I have absolutely no idea what I'm supposed to be doing. I have learned it is like this:
Don't be nice to people, nice is weakness
Don't be friendly to people, friendly is weakness
Don't be unfriendly to people, unfriendliness shows you're not a team player
Don't EVER say something as it is, make it always sound as best as it possibly can to make you look as best as you possibly can
Don't makes yourself sound too good, it makes you look arrogant
Don't put yourself down, it makes you look weak

This is the gist of what I've gathered