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Nades
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10 Jan 2022, 3:01 pm

Edna3362 wrote:
Nades wrote:

It's important to take a neutral stance. Assuming someone is disabled and never being able to question the extent of their abilities is just as bad as assuming everyone is perfectly capable and never questioning the extent of someone's disabilities.

I used the bus example for a reason. Years ago I was in a group of aspies. This one woman wanted her tablet fixed and gave it to another aspie. When she wanted it back she made it clear she wasn't going to pick it up and said aspie had to make the trip to her house to give it to her in person. The woman in question has been using public transport for decades with her family and when asked if she could make the trip by herself to pick it up, (a reasonable question and expectation) she went nuts.

Behaviour like this happens quite often towards me. Another person wanted me to take her to the local corner shop and she had just moved into the area and was anxious to leave home....the drive for me? 2.5 hours one way ​just so she didn't have to walk a few hundred yards.

Learned helplessness from others helping her far to often? exploitation? A bit of both? Who knows.

Pathological demand avoidance perhaps?
It's common in AS. It may even be related to it.

It's also something I can't relate. Like anxiety.


Might be anxiety causing Pathological demand avoidance? I never knew such a problem was actually recognised to some limited extent. Interesting but is similar to what I see regularly with overly dependant, but otherwise intellectually and physically able people with ASD. Reading about it, it appears to be focussed on children but I see plenty of adults "suffer" from it.

I find it extremely difficult to believe that an individual with a normal IQ and physical ability lacks the capacity to go shopping, order food at a restaurant, use public transport, sort basic paper work out and make more complex purchases. I always believed the "anxiety" many suffer from when dealing with such simple tasks to be a fallacy of "I haven't done it before, my parents always done it for me, therefore I can't"

I'm one to talk too. It took me until about 16 years of age to make my first purchase in a general convenience store. I believe the delay was because I had anxiety with purchasing and my parents never really taught me how.



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10 Jan 2022, 3:11 pm

Fnord wrote:
Which comes first: The infantile behavior or being infantilized?


That's the million dollar question. No idea how someone first becomes infantilized but we can be sure of one thing, hiding from any form of adult behaviour, refusing to leave home without a parent and throwing a tantrum when asked to ride a bus solo after 20 years of using them in some capacity (but with a parent) ensures these individuals will remain infantilized by everyone who sees them.

Not that there is anything wrong with being infantilized that is. Sometimes people with ASD just can't handle the tasks expected of typical adults regardless of how hard they try and need the similar support offered to many children.....but they just can't complain afterwards if this is the case.



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10 Jan 2022, 3:20 pm

Nades wrote:
I find it extremely difficult to believe that an individual with a normal IQ and physical ability lacks the capacity to go shopping, order food at a restaurant, use public transport, sort basic paper work out and make more complex purchases. I always believed the "anxiety" many suffer from when dealing with such simple tasks to be a fallacy of "I haven't done it before, my parents always done it for me, therefore I can't"


I can do all those things. It's just I don't particularly enjoy it. There is some resistance, maybe Pathological demand Avoidance.



Nades wrote:
I'm one to talk too. It took me until about 16 years of age to make my first purchase in a general convenience store. I believe the delay was because I had anxiety with purchasing and my parents never really taught me how.


As a small child i would walk in shops and buy soda, and crisps, and chocolates. I'm talking 7 years old. I had no qualms at that age, walking around, by myself, or with friends, or with adults.


I think alot of it has to do with, people just don't have high expectations, and they do infantilize people with ASD, but underlying personality traits, make it easy to fall into those patterns.


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10 Jan 2022, 3:26 pm

Nades wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Which comes first: The infantile behavior or being infantilized?
That's the million dollar question. No idea how someone first becomes infantilized but we can be sure of one thing, hiding from any form of adult behaviour, refusing to leave home without a parent and throwing a tantrum when asked to ride a bus solo after 20 years of using them in some capacity (but with a parent) ensures these individuals will remain infantilized by everyone who sees them.

Not that there is anything wrong with being infantilized that is. Sometimes people with ASD just can't handle the tasks expected of typical adults regardless of how hard they try and need the similar support offered to many children.....but they just can't complain afterwards if this is the case.
It is fair to point out that some people do experience some kind of overload whenever confronted with stressful situations.  With them, the "infantile" behavior came first.

On the other hand, some people may complain openly when things do not go right, and others overreact by treating them like spoiled toddlers who must be scolded and punished for their behavior.



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10 Jan 2022, 3:46 pm

theprisoner wrote:

I can do all those things. It's just I don't particularly enjoy it. There is some resistance, maybe Pathological demand Avoidance.


I dislike all of those things other than ordering food obviously. Shopping bores me to into a coma, paperwork bores me to death and public transport is usually meh. I take the car everywhere now unless I intend to get drunk in a city.

I only just found out about Pathological demand avoidance from this thread and it's interesting. It's focussed on kids but there is no reason whatsoever why it wouldn't carry on into adulthood. There wouldn't be an arbitrary age where it would suddenly stop and the sufferer will develop into the perfect adult overnight. Pathological demand avoidance is a life long disorder if left untreated.

theprisoner wrote:

I think alot of it has to do with, people just don't have high expectations, and they do infantilize people with ASD, but underlying personality traits, make it easy to fall into those patterns.


Easy to fall into, reluctant to change. An absolute death spiral that will only lead to a complete waste of a life. Modern expectations of never questioning the true abilities of someone with ASD just makes the death spiral worse. The problem is, it's now a social taboo to question disabled people who genuinely are exploiting others with needy and badgering behaviour, even if that behaviour bares little relation to their disability or is otherwise nonsensical (Wales to Salisbury woman, if you're reading *cough cough*). It gives them a card to play and plenty play with that card every day.



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10 Jan 2022, 4:02 pm

Fnord wrote:
Nades wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Which comes first: The infantile behavior or being infantilized?
That's the million dollar question. No idea how someone first becomes infantilized but we can be sure of one thing, hiding from any form of adult behaviour, refusing to leave home without a parent and throwing a tantrum when asked to ride a bus solo after 20 years of using them in some capacity (but with a parent) ensures these individuals will remain infantilized by everyone who sees them.

Not that there is anything wrong with being infantilized that is. Sometimes people with ASD just can't handle the tasks expected of typical adults regardless of how hard they try and need the similar support offered to many children.....but they just can't complain afterwards if this is the case.
It is fair to point out that some people do experience some kind of overload whenever confronted with stressful situations.  With them, the "infantile" behavior came first.

On the other hand, some people may complain openly when things do not go right, and others overreact by treating them like spoiled toddlers who must be scolded and punished for their behavior.


It's difficult to know the true causes of an overload/meltdown. Some might be caused by the sufferer feeling completely out of their depth after poor/mollycoddling parenting and suddenly being confronted with a situation where as a result of crappy parenting, don't have to capacity and tools to deal with. Perhaps problems like that could be reversed if caught early. Other causes seem more intriguing like excess stimulation of sense which baffle me.

Not going right as in observers of an ASD individual not doing a task correctly and scolding them as a result? If that's the case then people with ASD can be frustrating as hell to teach. Eventually I think most people with mild autism will be able to cope the the majority of daily living tasks. Shouting at them never helps as they're probably slow learners but learners nonetheless.



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10 Jan 2022, 9:43 pm

Nades wrote:
Edna3362 wrote:
Nades wrote:

It's important to take a neutral stance. Assuming someone is disabled and never being able to question the extent of their abilities is just as bad as assuming everyone is perfectly capable and never questioning the extent of someone's disabilities.

I used the bus example for a reason. Years ago I was in a group of aspies. This one woman wanted her tablet fixed and gave it to another aspie. When she wanted it back she made it clear she wasn't going to pick it up and said aspie had to make the trip to her house to give it to her in person. The woman in question has been using public transport for decades with her family and when asked if she could make the trip by herself to pick it up, (a reasonable question and expectation) she went nuts.

Behaviour like this happens quite often towards me. Another person wanted me to take her to the local corner shop and she had just moved into the area and was anxious to leave home....the drive for me? 2.5 hours one way ​just so she didn't have to walk a few hundred yards.

Learned helplessness from others helping her far to often? exploitation? A bit of both? Who knows.

Pathological demand avoidance perhaps?
It's common in AS. It may even be related to it.

It's also something I can't relate. Like anxiety.


Might be anxiety causing Pathological demand avoidance? I never knew such a problem was actually recognised to some limited extent. Interesting but is similar to what I see regularly with overly dependant, but otherwise intellectually and physically able people with ASD. Reading about it, it appears to be focussed on children but I see plenty of adults "suffer" from it.

I find it extremely difficult to believe that an individual with a normal IQ and physical ability lacks the capacity to go shopping, order food at a restaurant, use public transport, sort basic paper work out and make more complex purchases. I always believed the "anxiety" many suffer from when dealing with such simple tasks to be a fallacy of "I haven't done it before, my parents always done it for me, therefore I can't"

I'm one to talk too. It took me until about 16 years of age to make my first purchase in a general convenience store. I believe the delay was because I had anxiety with purchasing and my parents never really taught me how.

It seems that one develops PDA out of constant anxiety.



I don't know.
My circumstances are very different.

My upbringing was neutral as it can be.
No doubts to fight, no standards to uphold except my own.
No "discrimination", no understanding either. :lol: And my parents don't know what to do with me.

I was the sort who learnt that people cannot be relied on too early in life.
Have to accept the fact that no one would just get it, that one's best won't always be enough.

I even kept my family directly out of AS related issue. That passive background support and acceptance for who I'm is all I need and to my satisfactory.

Lastly, there is no constant certainty.
I understand needing order and routines.
But I can't understand constant needing for assurance.
Due to circumstances, I have to learn how to sit with the chaos and be at peace with it.


I had experienced a form of constant psych/trigger based anxiety for only less than 7 years of my life.

Never experienced it in early years. I had it later due to years of bullying but gradually lost it.

And all I read about many aspies is either experiencing anxiety since early childhood or since early adulthood, and then never getting out of it.


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10 Jan 2022, 10:12 pm

The old story about Einstein couldn't tie his shoe laces until 9 or 12 years old, comes to mind. I've done some silly stuff as I had a plan, then shtf but I tried to stay with the plan. I've a very single focus mind.

Edna, interesting to know how you removed anxiety and it can be removed or decreased.



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11 Jan 2022, 1:19 pm

Edna3362 wrote:
Nades wrote:
Edna3362 wrote:
Nades wrote:

It's important to take a neutral stance. Assuming someone is disabled and never being able to question the extent of their abilities is just as bad as assuming everyone is perfectly capable and never questioning the extent of someone's disabilities.

I used the bus example for a reason. Years ago I was in a group of aspies. This one woman wanted her tablet fixed and gave it to another aspie. When she wanted it back she made it clear she wasn't going to pick it up and said aspie had to make the trip to her house to give it to her in person. The woman in question has been using public transport for decades with her family and when asked if she could make the trip by herself to pick it up, (a reasonable question and expectation) she went nuts.

Behaviour like this happens quite often towards me. Another person wanted me to take her to the local corner shop and she had just moved into the area and was anxious to leave home....the drive for me? 2.5 hours one way ​just so she didn't have to walk a few hundred yards.

Learned helplessness from others helping her far to often? exploitation? A bit of both? Who knows.

Pathological demand avoidance perhaps?
It's common in AS. It may even be related to it.

It's also something I can't relate. Like anxiety.


Might be anxiety causing Pathological demand avoidance? I never knew such a problem was actually recognised to some limited extent. Interesting but is similar to what I see regularly with overly dependant, but otherwise intellectually and physically able people with ASD. Reading about it, it appears to be focussed on children but I see plenty of adults "suffer" from it.

I find it extremely difficult to believe that an individual with a normal IQ and physical ability lacks the capacity to go shopping, order food at a restaurant, use public transport, sort basic paper work out and make more complex purchases. I always believed the "anxiety" many suffer from when dealing with such simple tasks to be a fallacy of "I haven't done it before, my parents always done it for me, therefore I can't"

I'm one to talk too. It took me until about 16 years of age to make my first purchase in a general convenience store. I believe the delay was because I had anxiety with purchasing and my parents never really taught me how.

It seems that one develops PDA out of constant anxiety.



I don't know.
My circumstances are very different.

My upbringing was neutral as it can be.
No doubts to fight, no standards to uphold except my own.
No "discrimination", no understanding either. :lol: And my parents don't know what to do with me.

I was the sort who learnt that people cannot be relied on too early in life.
Have to accept the fact that no one would just get it, that one's best won't always be enough.

I even kept my family directly out of AS related issue. That passive background support and acceptance for who I'm is all I need and to my satisfactory.

Lastly, there is no constant certainty.
I understand needing order and routines.
But I can't understand constant needing for assurance.
Due to circumstances, I have to learn how to sit with the chaos and be at peace with it.


I had experienced a form of constant psych/trigger based anxiety for only less than 7 years of my life.

Never experienced it in early years. I had it later due to years of bullying but gradually lost it.

And all I read about many aspies is either experiencing anxiety since early childhood or since early adulthood, and then never getting out of it.


I'll probably start a new thread on Pathological demand avoidance. Every time I have a bad experience with an aspie they always show similar traits to what's described. Always insistent they can't can't perform a simple or essential task, refuse to even try and typically, whether knowingly or not exploit others when one of the tasks can't be avoided.

Usually they have to be pandered to at all times as any "ableism" is strictly forbidden, even if ableism is against an aspie who has an IQ of 130, has no physical problems yet is clearly taking the piss with their requests.

Might be one of the main reasons why people with ASD are seen as childish.



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11 Jan 2022, 1:30 pm

Mind you, be careful what you wish for. If you push people in at the deep end, some will swim and thank you for the empowering experience. Others will drown.



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11 Jan 2022, 1:37 pm

Nades wrote:
I'll probably start a new thread on Pathological demand avoidance. Every time I have a bad experience with an aspie they always show similar traits to what's described. Always insistent they can't can't perform a simple or essential task, refuse to even try and typically, whether knowingly or not exploit others when one of the tasks can't be avoided. . .
It seems appropriate for the Love & Dating section.



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11 Jan 2022, 1:53 pm

Fnord wrote:
Nades wrote:
I'll probably start a new thread on Pathological demand avoidance. Every time I have a bad experience with an aspie they always show similar traits to what's described. Always insistent they can't can't perform a simple or essential task, refuse to even try and typically, whether knowingly or not exploit others when one of the tasks can't be avoided. . .
It seems appropriate for the Love & Dating section.


Hahaha



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11 Jan 2022, 1:55 pm

ToughDiamond wrote:
Mind you, be careful what you wish for. If you push people in at the deep end, some will swim and thank you for the empowering experience. Others will drown.


Or intentionally drown and wait to be fished out the water lol? That's basically the crux of PDA.



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11 Jan 2022, 2:36 pm

Nades wrote:
Or intentionally drown and wait to be fished out the water lol? That's basically the crux of PDA.

"I didn't kill him, he brought it on himself." A tad too late to give him a lie-detector test. That's the problem, we don't know their true strengths and weaknesses. Anybody with an axe to grind one way or the other could do more harm than good. I think what would help is a careful, balanced look at a given target individual. I expect you'd often find there was a mixture of untapped resources and too much demand on them to do things they can't do.



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11 Jan 2022, 3:09 pm

ToughDiamond wrote:
Nades wrote:
Or intentionally drown and wait to be fished out the water lol? That's basically the crux of PDA.

"I didn't kill him, he brought it on himself." A tad too late to give him a lie-detector test. That's the problem, we don't know their true strengths and weaknesses. Anybody with an axe to grind one way or the other could do more harm than good. I think what would help is a careful, balanced look at a given target individual. I expect you'd often find there was a mixture of untapped resources and too much demand on them to do things they can't do.


Nobody will ever know strengths and weaknesses if it's taboo to assume anything other than take what a disabled person says they can't do at face value. There are sadly plenty of people with disabilities and not just autism who will will ride the guilt train as far as it can go. I've seen it very often and being someone relatively non-confrontational I've occasionally ended up on the receiving end of increasingly outlandish expectations from people with disabilities.

A balanced and impartial look is what's needed but it's very hard to do when everyone is encouraged not to be balanced and impartial for the sake to not offending someone with a disability.

Like I said earlier, assuming someone is disabled and not capable of anything can be just as bad as assuming everyone is perfectly able. There needs to be limits though. If an aspie has a degree yet insists you make him a cup of tea as he suffers from anxiety, then I would want to know why and would be pushy until I get an answer.



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11 Jan 2022, 5:46 pm

I just erased what I wrote because it was much too angry.

In my opinion, having worked with adults with autism and their parents - it is the anxiety of the parents that starts or at least enhances and magnifies the anxiety of the adult autistic child. And it is the parents' inability to let go, that results in the infantilization of the adult child.

It makes me sick.


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