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carlos55
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14 Oct 2022, 11:09 am

If autism is a neurological condition that cannot be cured what is the point of therapy?

Maybe I’m wrong but it’s a fair point

I think therapy is more useful for neurotypical people with neurosis like anxiety and depression or some other trauma.

It allows them to recover or move on from their symptoms.

Unfortunately autistic people don’t get that luxury.

Has any autistic people found therapy useful?


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Aspie1
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14 Oct 2022, 1:18 pm

carlos55 wrote:
I think therapy is more useful for neurotypical people with neurosis like anxiety and depression or some other trauma.

Underneath the "mental health" image, success in therapy is a social skill like any other. Like making friends in school, finding dates, meeting people as an adult, interviewing for a job, negotiating for a raise, standing up to bossy family, etc. In other words, you have to think on your feet, read subtle hints, figure out what gets the person on your side, find out their emotional buttons, etc., all in the short conversation you're having with them.

Therapy is no different: you have to have good social skills to succeed at it. If you can't "manage up" your therapist, they'll never help you. That's why most aspies are bad at therapy. And if your therapist sees you as less than a person, like a minor emotionally abused by your parents, therapy will be failure from the get-go.



Last edited by Aspie1 on 14 Oct 2022, 1:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

DanielW
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14 Oct 2022, 1:23 pm

carlos55 wrote:
If autism is a neurological condition that cannot be cured what is the point of therapy?

Maybe I’m wrong but it’s a fair point

I think therapy is more useful for neurotypical people with neurosis like anxiety and depression or some other trauma.

It allows them to recover or move on from their symptoms.

Unfortunately autistic people don’t get that luxury.

Has any autistic people found therapy useful?


Therapy won't help with ASD, you're right. What it can do is help with the related problems that often accompany it. Anxiety, stress, depression, etc. It can also help with socialization issues, like practicing social interactions, life-skills, and things of that nature.

At this point, I use therapy as a place to vent, and its also helpful to get a different opinion than my own on issues that may come up. I'm not saying a therapists opinion is better than mine, that's not my point, but sometimes they will say something that makes me consider an angle I hadn't considered or understanding another person's reaction to something I said or did etc.



temp1234
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14 Oct 2022, 1:55 pm

carlos55 wrote:
If autism is a neurological condition that cannot be cured what is the point of therapy?

Maybe I’m wrong but it’s a fair point

I think therapy is more useful for neurotypical people with neurosis like anxiety and depression or some other trauma.

It allows them to recover or move on from their symptoms.

Unfortunately autistic people don’t get that luxury.

Has any autistic people found therapy useful?
Very good point. I was vaguely feeling what you stated here but was unable to express it.

No, therapy didn't work for me. You can't "fix" what's hard-wired. That's why autistic people are a convenient long-term money-making tool for money-hungry "therapists".



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14 Oct 2022, 3:36 pm

temp1234 wrote:
You can't "fix" what's hard-wired. That's why autistic people are a convenient long-term money-making tool for money-hungry "therapists".

This is only partially true. You can't fix hard-wired, but therapy is really just gloified social skills. You can attain the skills needed to succeed at it.

Get good enough, and it might be your therapist crying themselves to sleep that night instead of you, because you went "Operation Shock and Awe" on their emotional buttons.



himmellaufen
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14 Oct 2022, 6:24 pm

Aspie1 wrote:
carlos55 wrote:
I think therapy is more useful for neurotypical people with neurosis like anxiety and depression or some other trauma.

Underneath the "mental health" image, success in therapy is a social skill like any other. Like making friends in school, finding dates, meeting people as an adult, interviewing for a job, negotiating for a raise, standing up to bossy family, etc. In other words, you have to think on your feet, read subtle hints, figure out what gets the person on your side, find out their emotional buttons, etc., all in the short conversation you're having with them.

Therapy is no different: you have to have good social skills to succeed at it. If you can't "manage up" your therapist, they'll never help you. That's why most aspies are bad at therapy. And if your therapist sees you as less than a person, like a minor emotionally abused by your parents, therapy will be failure from the get-go.


As a therapist you need to "think on your feet, read subtle hints, figure out what gets the person on your side, find out their emotional buttons, etc., all in the short conversation you're having with them.". But as a patient? Trying to control your therapist and manipulate them emotionally? I dunno, but something tells me that's most certainly not the attitude that patients are supposed to have.

Aspie1 wrote:
Get good enough, and it might be your therapist crying themselves to sleep that night instead of you, because you went "Operation Shock and Awe" on their emotional buttons.


Nah, you're still the one paying and they are the ones earning. Doubt they care and cry themselves to sleep because you were very assertive or something.
You sound a bit narcissistic.



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14 Oct 2022, 7:42 pm

himmellaufen wrote:
Nah, you're still the one paying and they are the ones earning. Doubt they care and cry themselves to sleep because you were very assertive or something.
You sound a bit narcissistic.
I'm as "a bit narcissistic" as George Soros is "a bit poor".

There were many therapy sessions when my therapist verbally violated me and enjoyed it, so no wonder I cried myself to sleep those nights. Just once, I want to see the shoe on the other foot. Of course, the shoe won't be completely on the other foot, as the therapist will get paid, not me, but them crying themselves to sleep is a fun thought. Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth.

And one time when my parents heard me crying, I had to "think on my feet" (like I should've during the session), so they wouldn't think I'm pathetic, as they loved that therapist. So I made up an excuse that I started thinking how my grandparents will get old, sick, and die, so it made me sad. My parents reacted like I was an angel, and comforted me. That was a good save!



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14 Oct 2022, 7:59 pm

Aspie1 wrote:
himmellaufen wrote:
Nah, you're still the one paying and they are the ones earning. Doubt they care and cry themselves to sleep because you were very assertive or something.
You sound a bit narcissistic.
I'm as "a bit narcissistic" as George Soros is "a bit poor".

There were many therapy sessions when my therapist verbally violated me and enjoyed it, so no wonder I cried myself to sleep those nights. Just once, I want to see the shoe on the other foot. Of course, the shoe won't be completely on the other foot, as the therapist will get paid, not me, but them crying themselves to sleep is a fun thought. Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth.


Yes, about that.
Have you ever seen them cry, or is it something you're just telling yourself, as you keep coming and paying them?



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15 Oct 2022, 6:24 am

It's because emotions and subconscious thought is "lateral".
To the conscious mind, that's been unaware or is in denial of being controlled by set of beliefs underneath that, sees it as 'going in circles'.

The worst thing it could happen is "misperceive" contexts and validate the harmful ones further and further -- regardless of the therapists' intent.

Emotional processing is a fricking headache, but an unfortunate necessity in the process of the human condition.
Not all humans have the rare gift of either or both carrying unresolved crap without being encumbered, having the ability to toss crap faster and for good before it festers, or come back stronger after recovery.


Sometimes I wish I have a devoted therapist. Sometimes. But there's no such thing as a therapist that specializes in autism from where I came from. Not now. And even if there is, it's out of reach.

The best one I got is my Sped teacher and I think it's not healthy for her. Or for us. It's free, sure, but that took her time from her day job. This is me being somewhat guilty about it.
She has other students and cases to tend and support to, and I wouldn't want to rob that time and space.

We have this understanding -- completely in my consent in which she does the triggering and reasoning, while I get triggered and figure out this crap. We both, somewhat, will get something out of this.

... NT emotional languages do not suit me at all.
More so if it goes into the religious territories.

So I have to work and attempt to translate that myself -- there ARE 'missing' terms -- terms that I as an autistic wouldn't agree on -- or terms that are not available in my personal reference, while my Sped teacher is figuring something out as well.

I mean, really -- for the most part I want solutions and reasons, not a hug.
And if the solution to my issues is figuring something out while being severely dysregulated and limited due to emotional reactivity and clawing the subconscious with it's defences flaring as result and as a process, then so be it.

Then when I'm particularly braver, more rational, and in a less egocentric moments, I'll explore it and attempt to reflect -- maneuvering myself away from getting distracted by being too busy or going high on sugar as coping mechanisms.


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BreathlessJade
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15 Oct 2022, 10:53 am

Aspie1 wrote:
Therapy is MEANT to keep you going in circles. Think about it: how would therapist make a profit if they cured patients in one or just a few sessions. They'd all go out of business! That's why they want to retain long-term patients who never stop coming, each time "sharing their feelings" :roll: (using NT social skills they naturally have), while getting nowhere. Therapists love it, because they keep hearing answers they want to hear, as they make an income most of us can only dream of, while doing no work at all.

Heck, even my current "physical" doctors treating me for my illness nowadays are kind of similar. Order this test, order that test, order this procedure, order that procedure, etc. :roll: After the last several months, I lost count of how many treatment machines I've been inside and how many times I've been poked with an IV. The main reasons I keep going back is that I can kind of see the benefits, my insurance coverers the majority of the costs, the nurses treating me are incredibly nice, and the machine treatments will make for bad-ass stories later.

Therapy, by contrast, is a game of cat-and-mouse: the therapist tries to trip you up with hidden expectations, as you scramble to find right answers on the spot to avoid angering him/her. For month after month, year after year. It's basically the torture scenes from the movie "Hostel", with with you strapped down in the chair as the victim.

Reading this gave me chills! Very true



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15 Oct 2022, 11:04 am

Edna3362 wrote:
It's because emotions and subconscious thought is "lateral".
To the conscious mind, that's been unaware or is in denial of being controlled by set of beliefs underneath that, sees it as 'going in circles'.

The worst thing it could happen is "misperceive" contexts and validate the harmful ones further and further -- regardless of the therapists' intent.

Emotional processing is a fricking headache, but an unfortunate necessity in the process of the human condition.
Not all humans have the rare gift of either or both carrying unresolved crap without being encumbered, having the ability to toss crap faster and for good before it festers, or come back stronger after recovery.


Sometimes I wish I have a devoted therapist. Sometimes. But there's no such thing as a therapist that specializes in autism from where I came from. Not now. And even if there is, it's out of reach.

The best one I got is my Sped teacher and I think it's not healthy for her. Or for us. It's free, sure, but that took her time from her day job. This is me being somewhat guilty about it.
She has other students and cases to tend and support to, and I wouldn't want to rob that time and space.

We have this understanding -- completely in my consent in which she does the triggering and reasoning, while I get triggered and figure out this crap. We both, somewhat, will get something out of this.

... NT emotional languages do not suit me at all.
More so if it goes into the religious territories.

So I have to work and attempt to translate that myself -- there ARE 'missing' terms -- terms that I as an autistic wouldn't agree on -- or terms that are not available in my personal reference, while my Sped teacher is figuring something out as well.

I mean, really -- for the most part I want solutions and reasons, not a hug.
And if the solution to my issues is figuring something out while being severely dysregulated and limited due to emotional reactivity and clawing the subconscious with it's defences flaring as result and as a process, then so be it.

Then when I'm particularly braver, more rational, and in a less egocentric moments, I'll explore it and attempt to reflect -- maneuvering myself away from getting distracted by being too busy or going high on sugar as coping mechanisms.

Yeah I feel somewhat manipulated to follow the therapeutic narrative even the therapist is kind and invites me to speak openly. Its like cutting steak with a butter knife.



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15 Oct 2022, 11:27 am

BreathlessJade wrote:
Yeah I feel somewhat manipulated to follow the therapeutic narrative even the therapist is kind and invites me to speak openly. Its like cutting steak with a butter knife.

Therapy always comes with a hidden narrative/expectation, even though you're not actually told what it is. "Speaking openly" really means "speaking openly, as long as it's what I want to hear and/or was trained on". Figuring out that narrative/expectation is the patient's responsibility. NTs are better at it than aspies, obviously. Equivalently, some therapists are more lax about their narrative/expectation than others, so good luck at finding a lax one.



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15 Oct 2022, 6:39 pm

BreathlessJade wrote:
Edna3362 wrote:
It's because emotions and subconscious thought is "lateral".
To the conscious mind, that's been unaware or is in denial of being controlled by set of beliefs underneath that, sees it as 'going in circles'.

The worst thing it could happen is "misperceive" contexts and validate the harmful ones further and further -- regardless of the therapists' intent.

Emotional processing is a fricking headache, but an unfortunate necessity in the process of the human condition.
Not all humans have the rare gift of either or both carrying unresolved crap without being encumbered, having the ability to toss crap faster and for good before it festers, or come back stronger after recovery.


Sometimes I wish I have a devoted therapist. Sometimes. But there's no such thing as a therapist that specializes in autism from where I came from. Not now. And even if there is, it's out of reach.

The best one I got is my Sped teacher and I think it's not healthy for her. Or for us. It's free, sure, but that took her time from her day job. This is me being somewhat guilty about it.
She has other students and cases to tend and support to, and I wouldn't want to rob that time and space.

We have this understanding -- completely in my consent in which she does the triggering and reasoning, while I get triggered and figure out this crap. We both, somewhat, will get something out of this.

... NT emotional languages do not suit me at all.
More so if it goes into the religious territories.

So I have to work and attempt to translate that myself -- there ARE 'missing' terms -- terms that I as an autistic wouldn't agree on -- or terms that are not available in my personal reference, while my Sped teacher is figuring something out as well.

I mean, really -- for the most part I want solutions and reasons, not a hug.
And if the solution to my issues is figuring something out while being severely dysregulated and limited due to emotional reactivity and clawing the subconscious with it's defences flaring as result and as a process, then so be it.

Then when I'm particularly braver, more rational, and in a less egocentric moments, I'll explore it and attempt to reflect -- maneuvering myself away from getting distracted by being too busy or going high on sugar as coping mechanisms.

Yeah I feel somewhat manipulated to follow the therapeutic narrative even the therapist is kind and invites me to speak openly. Its like cutting steak with a butter knife.

Few terms that do not speak with me is the division of being autistic and being human.
And then there's the perception of associating autism mainly as a form of dysfunction -- acceptance of limitations (not in a enthusiastic way).
It just reminds me more that this world is made for people who are not like me.

Emphasizing on improving weaknesses instead of getting to the root of my issues -- which happened to be sleep, and I need it for learning.
But I understand that going for one's own medical treatments is my own responsibility and decision (except it's not like it's available, or that I can afford it, or know where and with who).

Basing a lot of things by age -- in comparison of neurotypical developmental milestones. Even if some aspects of that didn't seem so typical.
With my inconsistency and unreliability, this is not very reliable. Especially with a stop gap that is my stupid subconscious.

Then there's knowing 'your place' (which is the concept of NT social hierarchy).
I do not perceive such a 'place'. There is no 'place'. I do not have that instinct. It just reminds me of a demanding world that I never able to identify with being hypocritically rigid.

Being "humble" (in which personally ending up conjuring an image of a lack of shame, gullible, subservient, people pleasing and easy to guilt person instead of associating it with ego-less service to others state and conviction).
I have very conflicting definitions that my subconscious doesn't want it yet my conscious self would want it.

Believing in God or higher power.
I kinda get it, really. It's just not a habit of mine.
And not 100% at the time, and the term 'believing' throws me off.


The reason why I would do so voluntarily is because I see this stubborn part of me as a very faulty programming -- that narcissistic spoiled brat in the driver seat than the intentional self that I want to be.

I've been aware of this since I realized I was different from everyone, and still undiagnosed. Like a lot of things like autism, I just didn't know it's called the subconscious, or that it's called a programming.
I was 8, it was 2003.
I realized the 'seperation' of autism and that brat in my head as soon as I was diagnosed.

If this part of me and I were separated as a person, I would beat this brat bloody. Quite why I let it be "hurt", why someones I say I need an "exorcism".

Obviously, this meant that I have not resolved or learnt much. I consciously know that part of me is sometimes that is hurt and in pain, basically a child who needed love and attention.
Except it's being a problem to me and everyone, and I do not like it. Too dificult at this stage.


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16 Oct 2022, 11:30 am

Thanks guys!



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16 Oct 2022, 11:36 am

Edna3362 wrote:
BreathlessJade wrote:
Edna3362 wrote:
It's because emotions and subconscious thought is "lateral".
To the conscious mind, that's been unaware or is in denial of being controlled by set of beliefs underneath that, sees it as 'going in circles'.

The worst thing it could happen is "misperceive" contexts and validate the harmful ones further and further -- regardless of the therapists' intent.

Emotional processing is a fricking headache, but an unfortunate necessity in the process of the human condition.
Not all humans have the rare gift of either or both carrying unresolved crap without being encumbered, having the ability to toss crap faster and for good before it festers, or come back stronger after recovery.


Sometimes I wish I have a devoted therapist. Sometimes. But there's no such thing as a therapist that specializes in autism from where I came from. Not now. And even if there is, it's out of reach.

The best one I got is my Sped teacher and I think it's not healthy for her. Or for us. It's free, sure, but that took her time from her day job. This is me being somewhat guilty about it.
She has other students and cases to tend and support to, and I wouldn't want to rob that time and space.

We have this understanding -- completely in my consent in which she does the triggering and reasoning, while I get triggered and figure out this crap. We both, somewhat, will get something out of this.

... NT emotional languages do not suit me at all.
More so if it goes into the religious territories.

So I have to work and attempt to translate that myself -- there ARE 'missing' terms -- terms that I as an autistic wouldn't agree on -- or terms that are not available in my personal reference, while my Sped teacher is figuring something out as well.

I mean, really -- for the most part I want solutions and reasons, not a hug.
And if the solution to my issues is figuring something out while being severely dysregulated and limited due to emotional reactivity and clawing the subconscious with it's defences flaring as result and as a process, then so be it.

Then when I'm particularly braver, more rational, and in a less egocentric moments, I'll explore it and attempt to reflect -- maneuvering myself away from getting distracted by being too busy or going high on sugar as coping mechanisms.

Yeah I feel somewhat manipulated to follow the therapeutic narrative even the therapist is kind and invites me to speak openly. Its like cutting steak with a butter knife.

Few terms that do not speak with me is the division of being autistic and being human.
And then there's the perception of associating autism mainly as a form of dysfunction -- acceptance of limitations (not in a enthusiastic way).
It just reminds me more that this world is made for people who are not like me.

Emphasizing on improving weaknesses instead of getting to the root of my issues -- which happened to be sleep, and I need it for learning.
But I understand that going for one's own medical treatments is my own responsibility and decision (except it's not like it's available, or that I can afford it, or know where and with who).

Basing a lot of things by age -- in comparison of neurotypical developmental milestones. Even if some aspects of that didn't seem so typical.
With my inconsistency and unreliability, this is not very reliable. Especially with a stop gap that is my stupid subconscious.

Then there's knowing 'your place' (which is the concept of NT social hierarchy).
I do not perceive such a 'place'. There is no 'place'. I do not have that instinct. It just reminds me of a demanding world that I never able to identify with being hypocritically rigid.

Being "humble" (in which personally ending up conjuring an image of a lack of shame, gullible, subservient, people pleasing and easy to guilt person instead of associating it with ego-less service to others state and conviction).
I have very conflicting definitions that my subconscious doesn't want it yet my conscious self would want it.

Believing in God or higher power.
I kinda get it, really. It's just not a habit of mine.
And not 100% at the time, and the term 'believing' throws me off.


The reason why I would do so voluntarily is because I see this stubborn part of me as a very faulty programming -- that narcissistic spoiled brat in the driver seat than the intentional self that I want to be.

I've been aware of this since I realized I was different from everyone, and still undiagnosed. Like a lot of things like autism, I just didn't know it's called the subconscious, or that it's called a programming.
I was 8, it was 2003.
I realized the 'seperation' of autism and that brat in my head as soon as I was diagnosed.

If this part of me and I were separated as a person, I would beat this brat bloody. Quite why I let it be "hurt", why someones I say I need an "exorcism".

Obviously, this meant that I have not resolved or learnt much. I consciously know that part of me is sometimes that is hurt and in pain, basically a child who needed love and attention.
Except it's being a problem to me and everyone, and I do not like it. Too dificult at this stage.

So kind of you to share. I hope things get better for you.



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16 Oct 2022, 11:39 am

DanielW wrote:
carlos55 wrote:
If autism is a neurological condition that cannot be cured what is the point of therapy?

Maybe I’m wrong but it’s a fair point

I think therapy is more useful for neurotypical people with neurosis like anxiety and depression or some other trauma.

It allows them to recover or move on from their symptoms.

Unfortunately autistic people don’t get that luxury.

Has any autistic people found therapy useful?


Therapy won't help with ASD, you're right. What it can do is help with the related problems that often accompany it. Anxiety, stress, depression, etc. It can also help with socialization issues, like practicing social interactions, life-skills, and things of that nature.

At this point, I use therapy as a place to vent, and its also helpful to get a different opinion than my own on issues that may come up. I'm not saying a therapists opinion is better than mine, that's not my point, but sometimes they will say something that makes me consider an angle I hadn't considered or understanding another person's reaction to something I said or did etc.

Yeah I agree. Its great for venting.