Possible link between herpes virus and Autism?

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Ozzy
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06 Dec 2007, 9:23 am

Quote:

Thank you very much for the quote.
I knew about the dangers of infection for the baby if it is born DURING an attack of genital herpes, and the need for a caesarean in those cases, but was absolutely NOT aware of the dangers of "damage" in utero.
To think my 8 year old son is maybe suffering from sensory, motor, and cognitive difficulties as a result of my having herpes , despite having made sure i was not having an attack at time he was born, is pretty hard.
To think that if I had had a child earlier, before the virus had had time to make its way into my nervous system, it might have not had such difficulties, is horrible. This might, as you say, explain why the frequency of autistic disorders is higher in children of older parents.
To think there may be many such cases is absolutely horrifying.
And to think that my own aggravated aspergers difficulties in the last 15 years may also be a result of neural damage by the virus is depressing.
I am somewhat staggered. If there is anything in this theory/explanation the scale of the disaster seems enormous.

Yeah, I know...kinda brings the "rage virus" in movies to life. Well the good news is, your child's grandchildren may be in good company by 2100 lol

Can you imagine the possible influx of autism if this is true 50 years from now. sobering... Breakdown of the nation's education system.

-Ozzy

Ozzy
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06 Dec 2007, 9:27 am

Zeno wrote:

The worst meltdown I have ever had was after I had been given attenuated hepatitis viruses for a medical school immunization. And today I find my meltdowns essentially linked to an immune response to viral agents like influenza. When I am exposed to the virus and my immune system kicks up, a meltdown ensues. Simply from personal experience, I do believe that there is a viral link in autistic expression, but that does not mean that there is a viral connection in the transmission of autism. Depending on probably complex genetic factors, certain people are vulnerable to autistic dysfunction that is likely to be triggered by certain environmental factors like virus, dust and so forth.

There, that should cover all the bases in the whole debate.

Yeah, perhaps some sort of immunodeficiency makes you more vulnerable.

-Ozzy

2ukenkerl
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06 Dec 2007, 9:30 am

Ozzy wrote:

Can you imagine the possible influx of autism if this is true 50 years from now. sobering... Breakdown of the nation's education system.

-Ozzy

It can't get MUCH worse, because everyone will simply opt out. I told someone just this morning how bad it was!

zen_mistress
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06 Dec 2007, 9:48 am

ouinon wrote:

Not cold sores, but their more lethal relative, the Herpes II virus, a sexually transmitted virus that after infection of genital organs migrates to spinal column and moves up it over time, apparently leading to later mental "degeneration"

Again, a lot of NTs have this virus. I cant see a link.

And personally I have never experienced a worsening of AS symptoms after a viral illness or immunisation. I think that with people who have had this occur, its because of an immune system reaction after a viral infection, not because of the actual virus itself. Some people get severe immune reactions even to immunisations.

People have ended up with things like Chronic Fatigue syndrome or in rare cases lupus after getting mono (glandular fever). Viral infections can change the body. It doesnt mean you weren't an aspie to start with.

I displayed aspie traits as a baby. Ive always been like this, lol.

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Ozzy
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06 Dec 2007, 10:01 am

2ukenkerl I'm not really understanding what you're so upset about...If I really must get into this argument about cold sores with you then fine. Once again, when I say canker sores...........I mean canker sores. Canker sores is a disease and:

Quote:

Causes:
The exact cause of aphthous ulcers is unknown.

Secondly there is a herpes related FORM of canker sores called herpetiform aphthous ulcerations that IS a form of herpes. THAT BEING SAID, I was not connecting canker sores to herpes, I was making the connection that some people with herpes may experience canker sores. ADDITIONALLY, I DELETED that small sentence about canker sores BECAUSE I DIDNT WANT TO GET OFF TOPIC.

I don't mean to be rude, but the horse was dead along time ago bub, and yet you keep whackin.

If you give me some reasoning as to the improbability of the inherited transmission of the virus, and it's effect on the on infants' physiology then lets talk about that, but please, enough of this cold sore bs.

I look forward to future debate.

-Ozzy

Ozzy
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06 Dec 2007, 10:09 am

zen_mistress wrote:

ouinon wrote:

Personally I'm open to ouinon's idea, but your comment still doesn't disprove my argument of inheritance. Furthermore, we are not just talking about any viral infection, specifically herpes. Herpes may uniquely alter one's DNA. So his argument still is a possiblity, and it could be those who are immunodeficient that are more vulnerable to DNA brain modifications, etc.

This is of course all supposition, but that's what debate is all about. : )

-Ozzy

Last edited by Ozzy on 06 Dec 2007, 10:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

ouinon
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06 Dec 2007, 10:13 am

At Encephalitis Information Resources I found the following remark, while looking up info about long term results of herpes infection, not so much the congenital damage in the children of someone with the virus, but the effects on the person who catches it. The last paragraph on the page;

"Recent recognition of MILD cases of Herpes simplex Encephalitis, and the suggestion that latent infection of the brain can occur, add a further dimension to this disease. If the patient suffers repeated episodes of mild ( undiagnosed and not debilitating ) Herpes simplex Encephalitis, there could be progressive damage to the brain. The relationship of such episodes to the development of various psychological disorders must now be given serious consideration and form the basis of future research programmes. Our understanding of conditions such as viral encephalitis is continually developing."
Link here:
http://www.encephalitis.info/TheIllness ... s/HSE.html

There are two elements to the possible chain of effect, the effect on the brain of person who catches the virus , AND the documented risk of congenital damage in children ( producing cognitive, sensory and motor difficulties from soon after birth) or infection directly during birth by skin contact with a lesion. The effect attacks would have on a growing brain too, if child was exposed to it in childhood.
The role of viruses in brain functioning and gene expression is apparently becoming increasingly obvious. If still very very unclear!! :roll: :lol:

Last edited by ouinon on 06 Dec 2007, 10:38 am, edited 4 times in total.

zen_mistress
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06 Dec 2007, 10:19 am

I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one. There have been 3 generations of AS people in my family I can see, on my father's side. Its possible that we could all have had viruses independently rewire our brains to resemble autistic brains when we were foetuses but it is unlikely, genetic inheritance seems to better explain the way AS seems to run in my family...

I also agree that viruses can cause changes in the brain, which can increase AS symptoms, but then so can other things, such as trauma.

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Ozzy
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06 Dec 2007, 10:23 am

Wow score one for ouinon! Excellent quote, I love it!

This is off topic, but hey are you really from France or is that like a Coneheads' anonymous, "France...we come from France!"?? lol cuz I have to say I don't detect an "accent." If you can called it an accent...lol...you're quick man.

-Ozzy

monty
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06 Dec 2007, 10:23 am

Quite possible that a virus infection of some sort could affect the brain and be a factor in ASDs. Maybe herpes, maybe some others.

Here's one animal study that suggests it may work that way:

Quote:

Behav Brain Res. 2007 Jan 10;176(1):141-8. Epub 2006 Jul 21.
Abnormal social behaviors in young and adult rats neonatally infected with Borna disease virus.
Lancaster K, Dietz DM, Moran TH, Pletnikov MV.

Division of Neurobiology, Department of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences, Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine, Baltimore, MD 21287, USA.

Autism spectrum disorders (ASD) have been the focus of a great deal of research and clinical speculation. This intense interest relates to both the perplexing pathogenesis and devastating consequences of these disorders. One of the obstacles to understanding the pathogenesis of autism and to developing efficient treatment has been the paucity of animal models that could be used for hypotheses-driven mechanistic studies of abnormal brain and behavior development and for the pre-clinical testing novel pharmacological treatments. In this report, we briefly review our animal model of ASD based on neonatal Borna disease virus (BDV) infection and present new data about abnormal social interaction in adult BDV-infected rats. We found that neonatal BDV infection profoundly affected social behaviors in adult rats. Compared to the control rats, both 90- and 180-day-old infected rats spent less time in active social interaction and more time in following their partners. In the intruder-resident test, the BDV-infected resident rats exhibited less aggression towards the intruders and showed more the following-the-intruder behavior. The following-the-partner behavior may be an example of "stereotypic" activity due to BDV-induced abnormal social communication between rats. The previously published results and present findings indicate that neonatal BDV infection significantly altered the normal pattern of social interaction in rats. Co-localization of activated microglia and dying Purkinje cells in BDV-infected rats suggests that the BDV model could be used to study a pathogenic link of Purkinje cell dropout and neuroinflammation to abnormal social behaviors.

PMID: 16860408

I personally think it is a multi-factor disease. Like heart disease, many things can cause it. Genetics are a factor in heart disease, but so is diet, lack of exercise, vices, bacterial and viral infections, etc. They have even found that people with poor dental health are at risk for heart disease - the bacteria that live in the gums make the immune system overactive, which ultimately leads to inflammation of the arteries and cholesterol deposits.

ouinon
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06 Dec 2007, 10:26 am

To Zen Mistress, I've just realised i need to clarify that i'm not suggesting that ALL AS/Aspergers/ASD are caused by this, but that SOME Autistic spectrum disorders may be the result of it, that some cases of AS might be triggered by such viruses, AND that some adults may experience an aggravation of symptoms as result of the virus. I don't believe it could be the only cause of all ASDs. There are simply too many differences and factors involved for ASDs to ever be explained by ONE thing.

Wow, posted that same time as Montys reply!! :lol: Thank you for that quote about study of rats. Very interesting.

PS: Ozzy; i am english but live in france!

Last edited by ouinon on 06 Dec 2007, 10:36 am, edited 3 times in total.

zen_mistress
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06 Dec 2007, 10:28 am

http://www.autism-help.org/autism-causes.htm

interesting.

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Ozzy
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06 Dec 2007, 10:28 am

Jeeze told myself I'd be in bed by midnight...7:30 am...hmm that went out the window.

Anybody else care to add their thoughts please, agree or disagree? Feel free to disagree, I encourage healthy debate.

-Ozzy

zen_mistress
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06 Dec 2007, 10:35 am

ouinon wrote:

To Zen Mistress, I've just realised i need to clarify that i'm not suggesting that ALL AS/Aspergers/ASD are caused by this, but that SOME Autistic spectrum disorders may be the result of it, that some cases of AS might be triggered by such viruses, AND that some adults may experience an aggravation of symptoms as result of the virus. I don't believe it could be the cause of all ASDs at all. There are simply too many differences and factors involved for ASDs to ever be explained by ONE thing.

Wow, posted that same time as Montys reply!! :lol:

PS: Ozzy; i am english but live in france!

yep there do seem to be many factors and a lot of it depends on the individual, and even lifestyle.
For example, I am hypoglycaemic and I find eating sugar makes my (AS) sensory issues worse. But other AS people I have met are not hypoglycaemic... There are a lot of factors... and we are all different.

_________________
"Caravan is the name of my history, and my life an extraordinary adventure."
~ Amin Maalouf

Taking a break.

Ozzy
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06 Dec 2007, 10:35 am

zen_mistress wrote:

http://www.autism-help.org/autism-causes.htm

interesting.

Very interesting, thanks for the add. The stress argument is interesting, stress has always affected me more than normal. Usually it affects sleep... hehe

-Ozzy

Ozzy
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06 Dec 2007, 10:44 am

zen_mistress wrote:

ouinon wrote:

To Zen Mistress, I've just realised i need to clarify that i'm not suggesting that ALL AS/Aspergers/ASD are caused by this, but that SOME Autistic spectrum disorders may be the result of it, that some cases of AS might be triggered by such viruses, AND that some adults may experience an aggravation of symptoms as result of the virus. I don't believe it could be the cause of all ASDs at all. There are simply too many differences and factors involved for ASDs to ever be explained by ONE thing.

Wow, posted that same time as Montys reply!! :lol:

PS: Ozzy; i am english but live in france!

But did they show other immunodeficiencies such as allergies, frequent colds, diabetes, HIV, etc?

-Ozzy

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