Board index › General Discussion › General Autism Discussion

Vaccines are ineffective and dangerous

Page 2 of 9 [ 130 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 9  Next

Previous topic | Next topic

zendell
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 10 Nov 2007
Age: 33
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,174
Location: Austin, TX

05 Jan 2008, 5:49 pm

Wilco wrote:
oh and btw thank you that you are concerend. thanks alot, people should be more concerned about other's. and you have some nice arguments. but have you compared them to the arguments, and statistics of those who are for vaccinasions? have you done research yourself? how do you know that what they say is really true?


I'm very concerned about vaccines since so many people may be suffering from chronic illnesses (CFS and autoimmune diseases) as a result of them. The only argument pro-vaccine people make is "look how much these diseases have declined" which I can easily refute by saying they already declined over 90% before the vaccines were introduced and would have declined anyway.

Quote:
I know vaccinations work, I have seen some people get sick while everyone else did not. it turned out they didnt have vaccinations and we did. I can believe you, but I need proof. deeds not words


Sorry but that doesn't mean anything. They could have had a weak immune system. I need scientific proof. The burden of proof is on the person or company selling their products. I shouldn't have to prove it's ineffective to refuse to take it. They should prove it's effective if they want me to buy it (which they don't since they got the government to force everyone to take their vaccines). I quoted from scientific journals, including the well-respected Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA), that says vaccines are ineffective.



zendell
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 10 Nov 2007
Age: 33
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,174
Location: Austin, TX

05 Jan 2008, 5:52 pm

Forget about the autism-mercury claims. It's been proven that vaccines, like all drugs, have adverse effects. The government vaccine damage fund paid out over $2 billion to victims suffering from vaccine damage. That's a fact. Someone show me evidence these vaccines are effective. I will change my position if the evidence supports it.



AspieDave
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 22 Oct 2007
Age: 64
Gender: Male
Posts: 568
Location: Traverse City, Michigan

05 Jan 2008, 6:10 pm

The fact that there are over 6 billion people alive today, instead of 5 billion or less?? How can you quantify that??


_________________
I tried to get in touch with my feminine side.... but it got a restraining order.....


Smelena
Cure Neurotypicals Now!
Cure Neurotypicals Now!

User avatar

Joined: 1 Apr 2007
Age: 64
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,950
Location: Australia

05 Jan 2008, 6:18 pm

zendell wrote:
Forget about the autism-mercury claims. It's been proven that vaccines, like all drugs, have adverse effects. The government vaccine damage fund paid out over $2 billion to victims suffering from vaccine damage. That's a fact. Someone show me evidence these vaccines are effective. I will change my position if the evidence supports it.


Go to a country where children are not vaccinated and watch them die/become ill from diseases like polio, tetanus, diptheria.

Those who choose not to vaccinate their children are relying on the vaccinated children to prevent an epidemic.

Helen



ouinon
Supporting Member
Supporting Member

User avatar

Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Age: 61
Gender: Female
Posts: 5,939
Location: Europe

05 Jan 2008, 6:23 pm

Smelena wrote:
Go to a country where children are not vaccinated and watch them die/become ill from diseases like polio, tetanus, diptheria.
Do you mean the countries without proper water sanitation systems, where many people do not have access to clean drinking water, and yet are encouraged to stop breastfeeding and use poor quality rejected milk powder products which need mixing with this water?

8)



Smelena
Cure Neurotypicals Now!
Cure Neurotypicals Now!

User avatar

Joined: 1 Apr 2007
Age: 64
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,950
Location: Australia

05 Jan 2008, 6:38 pm

Quote:
Do you mean the countries without proper water sanitation systems, where many people do not have access to clean drinking water, and yet are encouraged to stop breastfeeding and use poor quality rejected milk powder products which need mixing with this water?


I agree with the above causing mortality, but this does not mean that vaccines are ineffective / dangerous!

Helen



Smelena
Cure Neurotypicals Now!
Cure Neurotypicals Now!

User avatar

Joined: 1 Apr 2007
Age: 64
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,950
Location: Australia

05 Jan 2008, 6:49 pm

Please read this article regarding 'anti-vaccination fever:

http://csicop.org/si/2004-01/anti-vaccination.html

and this one

http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/EID/vol4no4/vitek.htm

I could go on ......

Helen



Orwell
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 8 Aug 2007
Age: 35
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,518
Location: Room 101

05 Jan 2008, 6:51 pm

ouinon wrote:
Smelena wrote:
Go to a country where children are not vaccinated and watch them die/become ill from diseases like polio, tetanus, diptheria.
Do you mean the countries without proper water sanitation systems, where many people do not have access to clean drinking water, and yet are encouraged to stop breastfeeding and use poor quality rejected milk powder products which need mixing with this water?

8)

Ok, so now we know what info we're looking for. Does anyone know of a country (or even region) somewhere in the First World, with proper sanitation and nutrition, clean water, etc. that does NOT use vaccinations heavily? If so, what are disease/epidemic rates like in these areas? And does anyone want to try and refute the success of the first vaccine, developed by Edward Jenner? Some people who took the vaccine DID end up dying of smallpox, but the death rate due to smallpox was appreciably lower in the vaccinated group than among people who were never vaccinated. Now, I don't trust drug companies in general, but I'm going to need to see some hard evidence (include stats, sources, etc) that vaccines really are harmful. It is true that both Sabin and Salk talked about the potential harm from vaccination, but really they were mostly trash-talking their competitor, since they both developed different polio vaccines. If anyone can find a study that shows that, all else held equal, those who are vaccinated were ever more susceptible to disease outbreak than those who were not, I will lend these claims some credence. But I plan to study to be a doctor, and I'm fairly confident that there is not a massive conspiracy within the medical community, as most doctors honestly want to help people. It would also be necessary to substantiate these allegations of drug companies influencing medical school curriculum.


_________________
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH


Phagocyte
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Oct 2007
Age: 35
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,757

05 Jan 2008, 6:55 pm

zendell wrote:
Someone show me evidence these vaccines are effective. I will change my position if the evidence supports it.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1689 ... t=Abstract



LeKiwi
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Age: 38
Gender: Female
Posts: 2,444
Location: The murky waters of my mind...

05 Jan 2008, 7:04 pm

Orwell wrote:
ouinon wrote:
Smelena wrote:
Go to a country where children are not vaccinated and watch them die/become ill from diseases like polio, tetanus, diptheria.
Do you mean the countries without proper water sanitation systems, where many people do not have access to clean drinking water, and yet are encouraged to stop breastfeeding and use poor quality rejected milk powder products which need mixing with this water?

8)

Ok, so now we know what info we're looking for. Does anyone know of a country (or even region) somewhere in the First World, with proper sanitation and nutrition, clean water, etc. that does NOT use vaccinations heavily? If so, what are disease/epidemic rates like in these areas? And does anyone want to try and refute the success of the first vaccine, developed by Edward Jenner? Some people who took the vaccine DID end up dying of smallpox, but the death rate due to smallpox was appreciably lower in the vaccinated group than among people who were never vaccinated. Now, I don't trust drug companies in general, but I'm going to need to see some hard evidence (include stats, sources, etc) that vaccines really are harmful. It is true that both Sabin and Salk talked about the potential harm from vaccination, but really they were mostly trash-talking their competitor, since they both developed different polio vaccines. If anyone can find a study that shows that, all else held equal, those who are vaccinated were ever more susceptible to disease outbreak than those who were not, I will lend these claims some credence. But I plan to study to be a doctor, and I'm fairly confident that there is not a massive conspiracy within the medical community, as most doctors honestly want to help people. It would also be necessary to substantiate these allegations of drug companies influencing medical school curriculum.


I agree, most doctors DO want to help people and mean well. I'm not saying they don't. It's just a shame who funds the training, who wines and dines them with new products, and who writes the books they learn from.


_________________
We are a fever, we are a fever, we ain't born typical...


LeKiwi
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Age: 38
Gender: Female
Posts: 2,444
Location: The murky waters of my mind...

05 Jan 2008, 7:06 pm

Phagocyte wrote:
zendell wrote:
Someone show me evidence these vaccines are effective. I will change my position if the evidence supports it.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1689 ... t=Abstract


I'm with Zendell; show me the evidence. However, please show me evidence that isn't from the government or from a drug company site/rep/linked-person. i.e. without vested interest. Independent.

I agree 100% - convince me they're safe to take. I'm the customer; why should I buy your products? Prove they're ok!


_________________
We are a fever, we are a fever, we ain't born typical...


Phagocyte
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Oct 2007
Age: 35
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,757

05 Jan 2008, 7:26 pm

LeKiwi wrote:
why should I buy your products?


Well, it's generally agreed upon that polio is an unpleasant experience. However, Pubmed is a government search engine, but the content featured are abstracts and citation from peer-reviewed scientific journals. I really so no point in taking part in this thread; anything opposing the claims made will be discarded as being big-business/government biased. Vaccines are often dangerous and have adverse side-effects, but to completely deny their effectiveness is simply foolish.



LeKiwi
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Age: 38
Gender: Female
Posts: 2,444
Location: The murky waters of my mind...

05 Jan 2008, 7:34 pm

Lol, of course polio is unpleasant; I'm not arguing that any of these illnesses are horrific and nasty and whatever else and should be eradicated if they can be. I'm just not convinced that vaccination is the way to do that, or that the benefits of vaccinating outweigh the harm.

(I actually have an uncle with one leg shorter than the other thanks to polio; I've seen what it can do).

Has anyone seen anything about CFS being the modern form of polio? Interesting stuff...


_________________
We are a fever, we are a fever, we ain't born typical...


Phagocyte
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Oct 2007
Age: 35
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,757

05 Jan 2008, 7:50 pm

LeKiwi wrote:
I'm just not convinced that vaccination is the way to do that, or that the benefits of vaccinating outweigh the harm.


Oh, but you are aware that there are benefits. Zendell denied their effectiveness altogether.



logitechdog
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 19 Nov 2006
Age: 40
Gender: Male
Posts: 973
Location: Uk - Thornaby

05 Jan 2008, 7:55 pm

I can make this easy with the new "cough" that animal on farms cannot be vaccinated, when an outbreak of something accrues millions of animals need to be slaughted, & farms near them need to be checked over & over again & then be slaughted if it breaks out, check points need to be set up & try & stop it from spreading & that is just by 1 animal been brought into the country...

That a good enough example of late history of stopping a vaccine?

& Ill say this once more about mercury, the mercury in a needle is totaly different to the mercury in it's chemical form...



LeKiwi
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Age: 38
Gender: Female
Posts: 2,444
Location: The murky waters of my mind...

05 Jan 2008, 8:11 pm

Phagocyte wrote:
LeKiwi wrote:
I'm just not convinced that vaccination is the way to do that, or that the benefits of vaccinating outweigh the harm.


Oh, but you are aware that there are benefits. Zendell denied their effectiveness altogether.


I'm sure they work to some degree, it's just that I'm sure they also lead to other problems further down the track... for example, you might get some degree of protection for a short while, like a few years or so, (although most vaccinations don't give 100% efficacy at all), but then further down the line end up with dementia or alzheimers or cancer or parkinsons or CFS or any number of other related disorders/diseases. So there may be some benefit in the short term, but in the long term you end up suffering for a longer while anyway. That's not counting the thousands who react immediately as well and swell up, go into anaphylaxis, end up with Guillaime-Barre Syndrome, etc etc. So to me, the benefits by no means outweight the risks.


_________________
We are a fever, we are a fever, we ain't born typical...