Albert Einstein is not your poster boy!

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Where the hell did you get the idea an Aspie can't have a great sense of humor??? I do. I know MANY who do. There are Aspie's doing stand up, and doing it WELL. There are Aspie's who are successful sexually as well. Very successful. Don't judge with a limited viewpoint, it's called a spectrum for a reason. He had obvious social behaviors others would consider non typical. He was completely unconcerned with the sexual mores of the times, and did what he wanted. Sounds familiar to me.... No, you can't "diagnose" someone who's dead. He did have differences in his brain tissue, but while MOST believe that's a valid indicator, we have no PROOF, because we don't know the CAUSE definitively. MOST believe it's genetic. If we can prove it, we can find out if Einstein was one of us. Until then little princeling don't tell me to shut up or I'll fart in your general direction.

First of all, I can't believe I'm doing this (defending LPP's argument, that is)

You're not more qualified than anyone else here to make such a judgement. The only people qualified to make such a judgement at all are Einstein himself, and a professional psychologist trained to make such diagnoses after direct contact with Einstein. This whole controversy exists because there is no way to test any such theories either way (since Einstein died long before the diagnosis of AS existed).


He was never confirmed to be on the spectrum (as discussed earlier, without him alive, there is no current means with which to make a diagnosis). It may be possible in the future if there is a physical brain scan that can be performed to make a determination, but for now it is indeterminate. And, as I said before, he was never confirmed to be on the spectrum.


Actually, the AS diagnosis is based on "no significant delay in development of communication skills" or something similar. Intelligence has nothing to do with it. An aspie with clinical mental retardation is still an aspie. You are correct in saying that intelligence is subjective... that's one of the reasons that the word "intelligence" doesn't appear in the diagnosis for AS, and therefore is invalid to use as a measuring stick (as you said), in this case to determine einstein's AS status.

Some extra notes:
Whether or not Einstein has AS, he was still a genius, and i need to make a note that under LPP's "Monogamy is a bad system for humans" thread, he still thinks that people such as einstein (or most of the people on this forum) should not be allowed to breed because they are "defective" Under LPP's definition:
which I would presume would exclude everyone present. I don't know about you, but if someone says that I'm not allowed to have children, I usually think they're a ****. So LPP, you can stfu.

Last edited by ToadOfSteel on 02 Feb 2008, 9:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

This thread made me laugh. So what if Einstein wasn't diagnosed with AS? Most people have it but go un-diagnosed...

Well here are two pieces of evidence that people can use to decide if Einstein was on the spectrum or not, the words of Einstein himself and his grandson Bernhard Caesar Einstein.

and Bernhard Caesar Einstein, 75, said that he recalled receiving a baffling three-hour lecture from Einstein on the mathematical properties of soap bubbles during a sailing trip. He was eight years old at the time.

Ahem--- I've had plenty of success socially and romantically (and um, semi-romatically), despite total aspiefication. Some people like weird people. *shrug* Imagine that.

So what if Einstein was autistic or not, he must have been fascinating company. Of course he'd have a full social life, whether he wanted it or not.

TOS,

You are welcome to try and defend the OP's theories all you want. I for one do not. My basis for saying that AE is on the spectrum is not based on my belief that he is, but by countless evidence layed before experts that say that he would be diagnosed if alive today.

The only reason he was not diagnosed is because he is dead, and someone has to be alive to get a diagnoses. That doesn't mean he wasn't Aspie. Someone IS or IS NOT an Aspie regardless of if they get a DX or not.

Second, current DX for AS is not based on physical evidence, ie brain shape and quantity of gray matter, but a subjective analysis by one or more clinical pychologists. We have fairly conclusive evidence from a physical nature that AE was on the spectrum. We just don't have a clinical one, because you cannot get one after he is dead.

Stating that AE wasn't an Aspie because the diagnosis didn't exist at the time, is a flawed argument because it is clear that AS existed at the time of AE, and probably thousands of years before that time.

Third, I must state that you are incorrect in both your understanding of AS as a disorder regarding communication, and as intelligence is related in diagnosis.

It is impossible to have a dx of AS and be ret*d. ret*d means someone is low funcitioning, and AS means someone is Autistic and high functioning. Someone cannot be both low functioning and high functioning at the same time because they are mutally exclusive terms.

The context in which you use phrase, "no significant delay in development of communication skills" is incorrect. All people with Autism have problems communicating their emotions and feels, as well as understanding and relating to others. What this term means, is that we can talk, say "ouch", "hello", etc in meaningful context as others in peer group. People with LFA cannot always do this.

Finally, I think the only reason someone would object to AE because an ASPIE would be is if they considered something wrong with it. There isn't anything wrong with being an ASPIE, and it is not an insult to him.

Best Regards,

Idaho Aspie

First thing first, I personally do not see him as our 'poster boy' for several reasons, but if others choose to do so it's totally up to them.

Personally, I choose Cavendish* for that, though always with room for doubt. As many here have suggested, to me it remains a mere 'possibility' if you can't 'prove' it; the rest is emotion. Just to make clear, I do not think Cavendish 'seems more likely to have it'.
*This wikipedia article hardly covers his AS-like habits. Also, I did not know Sacks had already suggested the possibility... baah.

Admirable point, though the trouble is this only adds a vote to the position 'it's possible that he has AS', so the argument goes back to square 1.

Correct me if I'm wrong 'cos I haven't investigated this extensively, but I think so far they've only found that part of the brain which deals with spatial information was bigger.

Last but not least, admitting the possible effect of balancing out the public view on autism in raising a point that there can be achievers in us, it'd be absurd if someone with more brain were deemed more valuable than someone else with less, not only in the 'big bad world' but also among us.

Maybe he should be the poster boy for us geniuses without the official diagnosis.

MrMark wrote:

Nooooooooo...... no takes the Precious!! !! gollumgollumgollum

I think you're missing the point. I'm not saying that Einstein didn't have AS, what I'm trying to say is that it's indeterminate, and therefore unless any future method can be devised in which a brain scan (or even a DNA profile) can determine whether or not he did, in fact, have AS, we cannot use him as a "poster boy" (as LPP suggests)


ret*d doesn't necessarily mean low-functioning... someone with an IQ of 62 could still perform basic living tasks and hold down a job. Granted, most people that are ret*d also happen to be low-functioning, but correlation is not causation.


Okay, so I looked it up, and it says "language development"... bad choice of words on my part:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diagnosis_ ... r_syndrome

To me, when someone says "communication", I think of verbal or written word, not the social context you seem to think...



There is nothing wrong with being an aspie. If it were up to me, there wouldn't be an effort to "cure" AS, instead we would be curing NT's of PLS (pathological liar syndrome, found in 99.9% of NT's). I'm just saying that unless a determination can be made, we shouldn't parade around saying that einstein was (or in the case of LPP, wasn't) an aspie...

You are right OP.

This is the reason, I got to state something: You can be the proof for succesful Aspies! Don't bother with guys that can never be diagnosed.

Last edited by Vexcalibur on 03 Feb 2008, 12:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

Haha, yeah!

There's also quite a bit of evidence to support that Hitler was an Aspie too. If you like Einstein great, but let's not pin our self esteem on who is Aspie or not because there's a few bad ones to go with the good!

TOS,

I just don't think we are communicating effectively. AE cannot be disagnosed because he is dead. Regardless of brain scans, etc. The only way to get a diagnoses is if he were to come to life and be examined by clinical psychologists. If that is someone's expected burden of proof for using AE as a poster child for AS then they should invest in a space suit because even gravity is only a theory. All of the evidence presented and examined states he is on the spectrum. We will never know defitively, because he is dead. As long as people understand that simple fact, as they do, when we use him as a "poster child" for Autism, I think we are OK in doing so. Nothing is 100% certain. But we did reach reasonable evidence and proof.

I also disagree with the ability of someone to be both ret*d and an Aspie. As one excludes the clinical defintion of the other in the DSM-IV criteria.

"5. no significant delay in cognitive development, self-help skills or adaptive behaviors (other than social interaction)"

If someone is ret*d, they are obviously delayed, that is the definition of ret*d.

Best Regards,

Idaho Aspie

You are welcome to use Hitler as your poster boy. But I don't think he was, he was too social and had too many friends.

Is it better to believe we are all hopeless social aloofs that cannot impact the world, especially when it is not true?

I think using AE and other successful people as examples shows hope and meaning to the NT world, we don't need a cure, and we are as Nature Intended. I am no AE. But I am sure there are Aspies that have the potential to be something special in their area of expertise, not just a worthless, socially awkward outcast as society tries to pigeon hole us into. I hope that Autistic people can realize their full potential, and be an important person.


Best Regards,

Idaho Aspie

Seifer is my poster boy.