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Does Asperger's syndrome really exist?

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02 Feb 2008, 11:56 pm

zendell wrote:
I noticed most people who replied didn't even bother to read my post. So I'll summarize what I wrote. The study I posted found that everyone diagnosed with AS was misdiagnosed and had HFA instead because symptoms started before 2-3 years old.


Thanks Zendell for this thread.
I'm interested in reading stuff like this - aimed at actually trying to understand what's going in a rational way, I'm sorry it wasn't as well received as it should have (logically) been.



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02 Feb 2008, 11:57 pm

I have no doubt that Aspergers exists.

They are saying that all children exibit signs and symptoms of aspergers and autistic disorder...but what about the adults who have a formal diagnosis of aspergers and are infact "delayed"? Not all adults have signs and symptoms of aspergers and autistic disorder, like they said that children do. There for, it must exist.


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03 Feb 2008, 12:11 am

my view:

the autism spectrum exists, neurodiversity within that spectrum exists.

aspergers syndrome does not exist. Its just a label given to autistic spectrum people with particular autistic traits - theres isnt necessarily any reason i can see why those particular traits should be deserving of their own special label imo.

& when i say it doesnt exist, i mean in the sense that schitzophrenia doesnt exist - its a widespread label, and many people identify with it, but there is no proven clinical significance. Its just a label.



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03 Feb 2008, 12:33 am

that's like saying the color violet doesnt exist because it's just a different shade of purple.

AS is just a different shade of HFA. we just happen to call it AS.



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03 Feb 2008, 12:53 am

I read an interesting article, that some doctors refute Aspergers because it is simply a name for high functioning autism. As most of you probably already know it's called Aspergers after Hans Asperger who discovered in the 60s that there were children exhibiting certain behaviours consistent with autism, yet were extremely verbal. Some doctors will simply diagnose "high functioning autism" which is the same thing, they just don't see the point in categorising it as something separate. I can see their point, if a severely autistic child grows up and learns to talk and function, are they then upgraded to Aspergers? Autism spectrum is probably a better term since it's broader. There are many categories within it anyway, like I was taught about one called Pragmatic Semantic Disorder which I rarely see mentioned (it's basically what is called OCD today, yet OCD doesn't seem to be classified as autism anymore)



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03 Feb 2008, 1:01 am

Shelby wrote:
I read an interesting article, that some doctors refute Aspergers because it is simply a name for high functioning autism. As most of you probably already know it's called Aspergers after Hans Asperger who discovered in the 60s that there were children exhibiting certain behaviours consistent with autism, yet were extremely verbal. Some doctors will simply diagnose "high functioning autism" which is the same thing, they just don't see the point in categorising it as something separate. I can see their point, if a severely autistic child grows up and learns to talk and function, are they then upgraded to Aspergers? Autism spectrum is probably a better term since it's broader. There are many categories within it anyway, like I was taught about one called Pragmatic Semantic Disorder which I rarely see mentioned (it's basically what is called OCD today, yet OCD doesn't seem to be classified as autism anymore)


Asperger published the first definition of Asperger syndrome in 1944, not in the 1960's.

Near the end of World War II, Asperger opened a school for children with autistic psychopathy, with Sister Victorine. The school was bombed towards the end of the war, Sister Victorine was killed, the school was destroyed and much of Hans Asperger's early work was lost. It was this event that arguably delayed the understanding of autism spectrum conditions in the west.



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03 Feb 2008, 1:04 am

aaronrey wrote:
that's like saying the color violet doesnt exist because it's just a different shade of purple.

AS is just a different shade of HFA. we just happen to call it AS.


colours are clearly definable in science - they occupy a specific wavelength on the electromagnetic spectrum.

The autistic spectrum is less clearly defined - it seems to cover a massive range of neurodiverse traits without a straight line (as with the electromagnetic spectrum) - no two 'aspies' are likely to share the exact same traits. So why the need to group them together at all?

For all we know the AS label has its roots from some quaint 'little professor' stereotype from 40s austria, or 80s england. Thats a cultural construct and you should be free to adopt and identify with if you so choose, but its certainly no basis for a medical diagnosis.



Last edited by psych on 03 Feb 2008, 1:09 am, edited 2 times in total.

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03 Feb 2008, 1:06 am

The article doesn't dispute that there's not a disorder, it disputes the diagnostic criteria of said disorder (DSM-IV-TR); this is why people like Professor Attwood use Gillberg's AS criteria. Gillberg's AS criteria is "correct" in relation to Asperger's work; it's also pretty close to Kanner's too.

Generally, autism with varying degrees of severity is far better than "Kanner's" or "Asperger's", as both of the doctors' children were all over the spectrum, and they were both explaining the same disorder.



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03 Feb 2008, 1:38 am

sinsboldly wrote:
Shelby wrote:
I read an interesting article, that some doctors refute Aspergers because it is simply a name for high functioning autism. As most of you probably already know it's called Aspergers after Hans Asperger who discovered in the 60s that there were children exhibiting certain behaviours consistent with autism, yet were extremely verbal. Some doctors will simply diagnose "high functioning autism" which is the same thing, they just don't see the point in categorising it as something separate. I can see their point, if a severely autistic child grows up and learns to talk and function, are they then upgraded to Aspergers? Autism spectrum is probably a better term since it's broader. There are many categories within it anyway, like I was taught about one called Pragmatic Semantic Disorder which I rarely see mentioned (it's basically what is called OCD today, yet OCD doesn't seem to be classified as autism anymore)


Asperger published the first definition of Asperger syndrome in 1944, not in the 1960's.

Near the end of World War II, Asperger opened a school for children with autistic psychopathy, with Sister Victorine. The school was bombed towards the end of the war, Sister Victorine was killed, the school was destroyed and much of Hans Asperger's early work was lost. It was this event that arguably delayed the understanding of autism spectrum conditions in the west.

Oh my god I'm so sorry, forgot about the autistic need for facts to be 100% correct and to correct anyone who is wrong. I should have googled it first because god forbid you quote something incorrect in front of an Aspie. What was I thinking. :roll:



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03 Feb 2008, 1:51 am

HFA and AS are basically the same except that HFA comes with the language delay and AS doesn't.


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03 Feb 2008, 2:06 am

Shelby wrote:
sinsboldly wrote:
Shelby wrote:
I read an interesting article, that some doctors refute Aspergers because it is simply a name for high functioning autism. As most of you probably already know it's called Aspergers after Hans Asperger who discovered in the 60s that there were children exhibiting certain behaviours consistent with autism, yet were extremely verbal. Some doctors will simply diagnose "high functioning autism" which is the same thing, they just don't see the point in categorising it as something separate. I can see their point, if a severely autistic child grows up and learns to talk and function, are they then upgraded to Aspergers? Autism spectrum is probably a better term since it's broader. There are many categories within it anyway, like I was taught about one called Pragmatic Semantic Disorder which I rarely see mentioned (it's basically what is called OCD today, yet OCD doesn't seem to be classified as autism anymore)


Asperger published the first definition of Asperger syndrome in 1944, not in the 1960's.

Near the end of World War II, Asperger opened a school for children with autistic psychopathy, with Sister Victorine. The school was bombed towards the end of the war, Sister Victorine was killed, the school was destroyed and much of Hans Asperger's early work was lost. It was this event that arguably delayed the understanding of autism spectrum conditions in the west.

Oh my god I'm so sorry, forgot about the autistic need for facts to be 100% correct and to correct anyone who is wrong. I should have googled it first because god forbid you quote something incorrect in front of an Aspie. What was I thinking. :roll:


I am sorry for your obvious distress, but the facts are other than you stated. If this were any other website than this one, I would think you were being sarcastic and exhibiting a stereotypical prejudice of an Autism spectrum disorder. But of course you are actually being apologetic about your inability to control your irritation with being corrected.


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03 Feb 2008, 2:24 am

zendell wrote:
Study evaluated 157 people diagnosed with ASDs and found that everyone diagnosed with AS really had HFA instead. It's no big deal because they're both similar and part of the autism spectrum. I just posted it because I think some people here may find it interesting.

Quote:
J Abnorm Child Psychol. 2001 Jun;29(3):263-71.
Does DSM-IV Asperger's disorder exist?
Mayes SD, Calhoun SL, Crites DL.

Department of Psychiatry, The Pennsylvania State University College of Medicine, Hershey, USA.

DSM-IV criteria for autistic and Asperger's disorders were applied to 157 children with clinical diagnoses of autism or Asperger's disorder. All children met the DSM-IV criteria for autistic disorder and none met criteria for Asperger's disorder, including those with normal intelligence and absence of early speech delay. The reason for this was that all children had social impairment and restricted and repetitive behavior and interests (required DSM-IV symptoms for both autistic and Asperger's disorders) and all had a DSM-IV communication impairment (which then qualified them for a diagnosis of autistic disorder and not Asperger's disorder). Communication problems exhibited by all children were impaired conversational speech or repetitive, stereotyped, or idiosyncratic speech (or both), which are DSM-IV criteria for autism. These findings are consistent with those of 5 other studies and indicate that a DSM-IV diagnosis of Asperger's disorder is unlikely or impossible.

PMID: 11411788 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


DSM-IV criteria - http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/autism/overvi ... iteria.htm

I don't know whether I agree with this but 6 studies seem convincing. I think this may be a good thing if it's true that everyone diagnosed with AS really has autistic disorder because that would mean all of us are more similar. I'm curious whether those who are AS had symptoms before age 3.

Please Note - I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything or doubt anyones diagnosis. I just came across this while looking for something else and think it's interesting.

Difference between autistic disorder and AS:
For autistic disorder, there must be "Delays or abnormal functioning in at least one of the following areas, with onset prior to age 3 years: (1) social interaction, (2) language as used in social communication, or (3) symbolic or imaginative play.

For AS, "There is no clinically significant general delay in language (e.g., single words used by age 2 years, communicative phrases used by age 3 years)."


What a waste of time to study this, of course it exists.


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03 Feb 2008, 2:46 am

sinsboldly wrote:
Shelby wrote:
sinsboldly wrote:
Shelby wrote:
I read an interesting article, that some doctors refute Aspergers because it is simply a name for high functioning autism. As most of you probably already know it's called Aspergers after Hans Asperger who discovered in the 60s that there were children exhibiting certain behaviours consistent with autism, yet were extremely verbal. Some doctors will simply diagnose "high functioning autism" which is the same thing, they just don't see the point in categorising it as something separate. I can see their point, if a severely autistic child grows up and learns to talk and function, are they then upgraded to Aspergers? Autism spectrum is probably a better term since it's broader. There are many categories within it anyway, like I was taught about one called Pragmatic Semantic Disorder which I rarely see mentioned (it's basically what is called OCD today, yet OCD doesn't seem to be classified as autism anymore)


Asperger published the first definition of Asperger syndrome in 1944, not in the 1960's.

Near the end of World War II, Asperger opened a school for children with autistic psychopathy, with Sister Victorine. The school was bombed towards the end of the war, Sister Victorine was killed, the school was destroyed and much of Hans Asperger's early work was lost. It was this event that arguably delayed the understanding of autism spectrum conditions in the west.

Oh my god I'm so sorry, forgot about the autistic need for facts to be 100% correct and to correct anyone who is wrong. I should have googled it first because god forbid you quote something incorrect in front of an Aspie. What was I thinking. :roll:


I am sorry for your obvious distress, but the facts are other than you stated. If this were any other website than this one, I would think you were being sarcastic and exhibiting a stereotypical prejudice of an Autism spectrum disorder. But of course you are actually being apologetic about your inability to control your irritation with being corrected.

When it's a point irrelevant to the topic, which the exact time period was, then it's just correcting for the sake of correcting. In that case completely unnecessary and a mere attempt to "one up" someone.



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03 Feb 2008, 2:58 am

Shelby wrote:
sinsboldly wrote:
Shelby wrote:
sinsboldly wrote:
Shelby wrote:
I read an interesting article, that some doctors refute Aspergers because it is simply a name for high functioning autism. As most of you probably already know it's called Aspergers after Hans Asperger who discovered in the 60s that there were children exhibiting certain behaviours consistent with autism, yet were extremely verbal. Some doctors will simply diagnose "high functioning autism" which is the same thing, they just don't see the point in categorising it as something separate. I can see their point, if a severely autistic child grows up and learns to talk and function, are they then upgraded to Aspergers? Autism spectrum is probably a better term since it's broader. There are many categories within it anyway, like I was taught about one called Pragmatic Semantic Disorder which I rarely see mentioned (it's basically what is called OCD today, yet OCD doesn't seem to be classified as autism anymore)


Asperger published the first definition of Asperger syndrome in 1944, not in the 1960's.

Near the end of World War II, Asperger opened a school for children with autistic psychopathy, with Sister Victorine. The school was bombed towards the end of the war, Sister Victorine was killed, the school was destroyed and much of Hans Asperger's early work was lost. It was this event that arguably delayed the understanding of autism spectrum conditions in the west.

Oh my god I'm so sorry, forgot about the autistic need for facts to be 100% correct and to correct anyone who is wrong. I should have googled it first because god forbid you quote something incorrect in front of an Aspie. What was I thinking. :roll:


I am sorry for your obvious distress, but the facts are other than you stated. If this were any other website than this one, I would think you were being sarcastic and exhibiting a stereotypical prejudice of an Autism spectrum disorder. But of course you are actually being apologetic about your inability to control your irritation with being corrected.

When it's a point irrelevant to the topic, which the exact time period was, then it's just correcting for the sake of correcting. In that case completely unnecessary and a mere attempt to "one up" someone.


I assure you it was no such intention. I simply corrected the date and gave some interesting information. Sometimes people are actually receptive to learning new things.



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03 Feb 2008, 3:00 am

I must be HFA then. What age is Aspergers supposed to occur?



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03 Feb 2008, 3:03 am

lol? of course it does :)


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