Theory of Mind BS

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15 Feb 2008, 1:10 pm

All of the uses of Theory of Mind that I have run into (as a mathematics major... ) have been well defined and empirical.

Wiki: the ultimate in scientific reliability wrote:

in recent years, the phrase "theory of mind" has more commonly been used to refer to a specific cognitive capacity: the ability to attribute mental states—beliefs, intents, desires, pretending, knowledge, etc.—to oneself and others and to understand that others have beliefs, desires and intentions that are different from one's own

Theory of mind tests test the functional ability to do these things (a simple example: understanding that someone else cannot see something that you can see), and as this correlates with other things, it is a scientifically valid metric as far as I'm concerned. Reading any further into it is an unfortunate part of modern "psychology", but I think the concept is valid.

I really disagree that it necessarily dehumanizes people with ASD; they aren't uncaring, in this model, so much as incapable of understanding, that is comprehending the problems that other people have. Whether this is due to an inability to associate the standard cues with internal mental states or simply an innate lack of capacity is what needs to be determined. At any rate, the confusion people with ASD experience at other people's reactions certainly points to a deficit in modeling them.

Maybe I'm old fashioned, but empathy and theory of mind aren't "things"; they are correlates with certain behaviors and measurable reactions. I don't see why we need to have a notion of what they "really are" at all. I think much of the friction on the ASD side of the debate is due to a confusion of an operationalized scientific term with some kind of everyday notion or a value judgment.

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15 Feb 2008, 1:49 pm

Everyone has a different idea about what constitutes an autism spectrum diagnosis. Theory of mind, eh. Clearly we have issues processing some things, but I think it's so different from individual to individual that it can't be easily summarized like some people seem to believe.

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15 Feb 2008, 1:56 pm

On one TOM I read I could something I am not supposed to be able to do. That made me happy but I think the TOM could be wrong. If it is right then I am now in the NT range on that one question I answered.

They need to admit it, they don't understand us really do they.

scumsuckingdouchebag
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15 Feb 2008, 2:47 pm

ToM is not mentioned in either the DSM-IV, ICD-10, or Gillberg's criteria for an ASD diagnosis. ToM is usually cited as a requirement for someone to engage in deception, yet there are reports on this forum and elsewhere from parents complaining trheir Aspergers Syndrome child lies chronically or compulsively.

Donna Williams on her blog also mentions that those with ASDs can also be afflicted with NPD, and mentions the existence of books differentiating between NT NPD sufferers and ASD NPD sufferers, but I don't know the title of these books or what the descriptions entail. A person with NPD usually reqires a decently-functioing theory of mind to project a false self. How successful they are at this projection will probably depend upon if they have ToM impairments or not.

http://blog.donnawilliams.net/2007/08/26/when-a-discussion-isnt-a-discussion-and-caring-isnt-caring/

Quote:

August 31st, 2007 at 6:44 am
donna

Interestingly, there are culturalists with ASD who proclaim all these features of non-autistic people. Personally, I think there are narcissists in any population, non-autistic and those with ASD, and there are non-narcissistic individuals with and without ASD. Fact is those who are narcissistic AND have ASD are more likely to throw tantrums, abuse others, rant at people, blame all but themselves, stalk, flame and troll than those with ASD who are not narcissistic. Those without ASD who are narcissists perhaps have some better social skills to hide their narcissism behind. Interestingly, recently there have been some books distinguishing narcissistic personality disorder in those with ASD from ASD itself. Of course as NPD is simply an exaggerated form of the self-confident personality trait, clearly someone with or without ASD could develop narcissistic personality disorder. I think if you’ve noticed that many with ASD have narcissism, then you are likely only encountering them in certain social arenas.

I’ve been an autism consultant for 12 years, working with over 600 people on the spectrum, mostly kids and often those most severely challenged. Most of my clients could never be described as arrogant, pompous or having a delusional concept of self worth. Most, however could be described as profoundly self oriented. If you understand that most struggle to process any consistent simultaneous sense of self and other, then you would understand self oriented has nothing to do with self centred, but without simultaneous processing of sense of other, it can be very hard to develop skills based on a simultaneous sense of self and other.

I've read elsewhere of anecdotes of even "autistic sociopaths"(not 'psychopaths' as Hans Asperger described, but sociopaths), which appears to me to be an oxymoron.

http://community.livejournal.com/asperger/1286577.html

Whether it's true or not, I can't say, but if it is, it would be a damn interesting topic to study.

Quote:

moggymania
2006-10-09 11:47 pm UTC

I have met autistics that are outright sociopaths; anything is possible. I have also met some whose lives had included being mistreated in a way that had beaten down certain known (as in known by the community *and* by parents *and* by the research community, not as in "stereotype") autistic traits in favor of fake NT ones -- right down to convincing them that they're superior for it. That applies to virtually any trait, whether it's honesty, justice, stimming, or perseverating.

That doesn't mean that the behavior that shows up in their place would have been there without intervention, that it's natural, or that the skill is being applied with the same lack of effort a neurotypical of the same age would use. (In fact, it's now the norm to *teach* speaking autistic children to lie and be deceptive -- whole programs are designed around it, and I have known AS parents of AS kids rejoice when their kid attempted to be dishonest.) This includes the many auties that have lost the ability to remember what they're like beneath the mask, how to stim, how to let themselves perseverate (or even how to regain the energy/focus to do so), or to recognize things that affect them as autistics that don't affect NT peers.

I wonder if anyone on this forum has any familiarity with the subjects being described in these two links and could point to further resources.

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15 Feb 2008, 3:05 pm

twoshots, working with his graduate students on theory of mind

"Dr. twoshots, what exactly are we measuring?"
"Shut up and calculate."

[/inside joke]

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15 Feb 2008, 3:26 pm

Theory of mind refers to a cognitive category. The problem in applying it wholesale to another category (the spectrum of autisms) is that most of the evidence is, thus far, clinical, not experimental.

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scumsuckingdouchebag
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15 Feb 2008, 3:28 pm

Any ideas on how to obtain experimental data? I'm quite amazed so little is known about ASDs after all this time and research.

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15 Feb 2008, 3:32 pm

scumsuckingdouchebag wrote:

Any ideas on how to obtain experimental data? I'm quite amazed so little is known about ASDs after all this time and research.

It seems to me that many don't even recognize Aspergers', as it's relatively new in the DSM.

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15 Feb 2008, 3:57 pm

SilverProteus wrote:

scumsuckingdouchebag wrote:

Any ideas on how to obtain experimental data? I'm quite amazed so little is known about ASDs after all this time and research.

It seems to me that many don't even recognize Aspergers', as it's relatively new in the DSM.

14 years is new???

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15 Feb 2008, 4:01 pm

TLPG wrote:

SilverProteus wrote:

scumsuckingdouchebag wrote:

Any ideas on how to obtain experimental data? I'm quite amazed so little is known about ASDs after all this time and research.

It seems to me that many don't even recognize Aspergers', as it's relatively new in the DSM.

14 years is new???

Sorry, I should've worded my post better. It's not that it isn't recognized, it's that most won't diagnose somebody with Asperger's because it's fairly new, and it's a difficult label to attach to somebody with certainty.

I know people (psychologists) who don't even believe Asperger's Syndrome even exists (believe it or not).

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15 Feb 2008, 4:07 pm

SilverProteus wrote:

TLPG wrote:

SilverProteus wrote:

scumsuckingdouchebag wrote:

Any ideas on how to obtain experimental data? I'm quite amazed so little is known about ASDs after all this time and research.

It seems to me that many don't even recognize Aspergers', as it's relatively new in the DSM.

14 years is new???

Yeah - those are the ones who persist in the Schizophrenia DX's. They should have their licences revoked. I think actually they don't pay any attention to any edition of the DSM let alone the DSM-IV!

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15 Feb 2008, 4:10 pm

TLPG wrote:

SilverProteus wrote:

TLPG wrote:

SilverProteus wrote:

scumsuckingdouchebag wrote:

Any ideas on how to obtain experimental data? I'm quite amazed so little is known about ASDs after all this time and research.

It seems to me that many don't even recognize Aspergers', as it's relatively new in the DSM.

14 years is new???

Yeah - those are the ones who persist in the Schizophrenia DX's. They should have their licences revoked. I think actually they don't pay any attention to any edition of the DSM let alone the DSM-IV!

I suffered that dx, twice now. :roll:

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15 Feb 2008, 4:59 pm

Quote:

I know people (psychologists) who don't even believe Asperger's Syndrome even exists (believe it or not).

Inventor once stated on this forum something close to "doctors say we're normal".

Quote:

I suffered that dx, twice now.

I heard the medication for schizophrenia does horrible things to your body.

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15 Feb 2008, 5:05 pm

scumsuckingdouchebag wrote:

I heard the medication for schizophrenia does horrible things to your body.

It does. It does things to the mind as well.

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15 Feb 2008, 6:37 pm

SilverProteus wrote:

scumsuckingdouchebag wrote:

I heard the medication for schizophrenia does horrible things to your body.

It does. It does things to the mind as well.

Back in the mid-60s, I was constantly in a daze because of the Thorazine and other meds I was on. Like most aspies at the time, I was diagnosed with childhood schizophrenia.

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15 Feb 2008, 6:43 pm

An old American Heritage dictionary I have from 1969 defines autism as the following:

A form of childhood schizophrenia characterized by acting out and withdrawl. In this sense, also called "infantile autism."

This was interesting given your comment.

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