Autistics should never hurt each other.

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Yeah...

But humans can't help doing that, while we can.

So the "should" - as was pointed out - is really a "don't have to".

"Autistics don't have to hurt each other."

We're able to prevent ourselves from continuing the cycle of hurting - and it looks like most of us do, from what I can see on the 'net. Humans just can't seem to do that.



"Should" is right. But can humans really stop? Autistics appear able to stop.
While humans seem to derive a satisfaction or relief from hurting back, I think (and I can only speak for myself, although it does look 'Autis-wide') that Autistics don't derive that relief - but only end up feeling worse when they do it.

We Aut to know topic

This is the ideal, Archetype. How did you know Edward Albee?

I like the long post, though I usually do not make lengthy ones.

In the past I have often told others that any hurt I have received I can do better to myself. I did this so the pain would not feel so intense. Now I see I was just beating myself up and stopped doing this long ago. If I find others doing this to me I just walk away. I do not need to stay and suffer through something I find unjustified. There is no need for retribution. It simply is not worth it.

Having said this, I will not knowingly make others feel bad, and if I make retorts, I only use my echolalia to repeat back to them what they have already said. End of problem.

Excellent topic.

I think you'd be really interested in the thread about forming an "Aspie Nation."
What's being discussed is a community, built by Aspies, for Aspies. I can't help but be enthralled by the idea. You should check it out.
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postx42448-105-0.html

I think it'd be a good step forward, both in terms of rights and public opinion.

You are joking, mate.

Everything else after this is based on this false premise and thus flawed.

Autistic people are, funnily enough, not angels but human beings.

I would say that I have hurt plenty of people. Yes, initiated it. And this even though everyone who knows me says what an exceptionally nice, kind, honest person I am.

The last person I went out with turned out to be one of the most hurtful, cruel, deceitful persons I have ever known. You guessed. Aspie. in the closet. But trying very hard to act NT - in order to a) deceitfully snare a partner at all costs and b) to deceive employer (who would have fired immediately due to the nature of the work. Yes, there ARE jobs that Aspies should not do.)

So this delightful person purposely deceived and hurt many, quite deliberately - and seriously affected the lives of many people who are more vulnerable than you and I.

Sorry, pal, but we're human too. Aspiehood is much easier to deal with when you take the rose-tinted googles off.

Hi SartreSue,
the ideal archetype???
Mr. Albee lives in NYC, and is a friend of th director of a stage in Connecticut.


It's difficult to do more than provide an opinion in a short post. I don't really care too much about my own opinions; I'm vested in what's true. It is difficult to read long posts - but I've found that's the more productive way the truth can be discussed in a forum.


Retribution ... I can't say what retribution is, or whether someone else is justified in wanting it.
There are valid reasons to stop such, however.
Education is hard to argue with; educating people why they shouldn't be hurtful I find incontestable.
Methods of education? Perhaps first the other person needs to understand that hurt before they can understand why not to do it.
Again, I have been stripped of moralities about this issue, and cannot find any reasons to speak for another's feeling and their resultant actions.


That seems like a very productive method for not accepting that hurt - by placing it right back where it bleongs; and the other person gets to see their actions and they may not like what they see.
I carry around a 3MP cellphone/camera (although I have yet to use the video mode) so that I can record idiots and play everything they say and do back to them. They always deny what happened in some fashion. I have an A/V recorder in my head, but they can't access that, so I thought I get one they could.

I fully agree with everything you said.

This is my topic post on the subject, and how its developed.
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt63966.html

I've also posted on www.AspiesforFreedom.com (AFF) - they have a forum dedicated to this. subject, and it has also cropped up on other forums there, as well.

Thanks for the link.

Hi Lupin.

This is another long post, but I hope you'll read it.

No.


It might be, it might not be. How about we find out ... for real?


I disagree completely; I cannot define - by human standard - Autistics as human. Human is defined by the intangible traits with do, actually define 'human'. Auts have different intangible traits, and so cannot be defined as 'human'.
"Human" is not a physical entity - that's a homo-sapiens. Just because other species look like homo-sapiens does not mean they are necessarity "human".

This appears only evident and clear and factual to me. I have no moralities preventing my viewing this. My experience in the world is what creates this.

I created this two years before I discovered I was AS. It has nothng to do with the fact that I am AS. I created this because of my relations with sociopaths - and that I found I could not define them as "human" precisely because they lacked sufficient human traits to qualify as "human".

I find Aspies do not qualify as "human", either. I am finding that Aspies have superior traits by which humans define themselves as 'human' ... and that Aspies appear to have further traits which humans do not appear to have.


I am not saying that Auts do not hurt people, but that Auts are not naturaly hurtful and do not have the tendency to be hurtful, and that the hurtful behavior of Auts are a result of living in an overwhelmingly hurtful world.
I would say that humans suffer just as much, but that they cannot stop hurting.
I am saying that Auts can stop hurting, which is why I posted this topic as "Autistics should never hurt ..."

You probaby have been hurful. I certainly have been hurtful in response, in my life; very much so. I do not tend to initiate hurt, as that makes me feel bad. I learned that around nursery school.

I would think, offhand, that the hurt you initiated was likely a defensiveness or anger, may not have actually been intiated - but a response, or that upon examination, would be discovered not to be malicious, and that you did not derive a satisfaction from it.
Although I don't know.
But I think it would be excellent to take a look at it, if you're willing. I haven't yet discussed this with any Aspies, as none have discussed it.
If you were really maliciously hurtful and derived a satisfaction from hurting, that would be very important for me to know, and I wouldn't then be able to make the statement I make.

So, if you're willing to be open, I'm not going to judge, because it's understandable why people are hurtful ... but it's not understandable why they continue to be.

Some questions:

- How old are you?
- Can you provide an example of you initiating - without warrant or reason - some hurt on an innocent being?
- If you understand that you have been hurtful, when did you understand this?
- What satisfaction(s) did you derive by hurting others?
- Do you continue to initiate hurt?

You speak in the past tense. Have you been able to stop yourself from initiating hurt? Are you still hurtful towards others?


I was maried and divorced before I discovered I'm AS. Now, I'm unsure whether my ex-wife was a sociopath or AS.
I did marry her for a reason. We were so alike.
We are bother ... utter.
We both destroy, then annihilate, then crush, then obliterate our enemies. We are satisfied when they are beyond all fixing, and regret having been born that they actually fell into our disfavor.

However, there was a most important discussion we had.
She talked about a guy coming into work, the brother of the daytime owner of shared restaraunt. At night it became a different restaraunt, different staff and decor and food, etc..
She told me about things he did which she didn't like and that she didn't understand why he did them.
After listening to her, I had to explain that he was just of average intelligence, and that he didn't really understand wat he was doing, but that he wanted to be liked by the night staff, but that he didn't know how, and so he was using his importance of being the leasor's brother.
She is unable to understand the average person, and does not understand why they do what they do.
I had to place it to her in terms of average people being like 'pets', and that we had to understand them and take care of them and help them get what they need.
She was very satisfied with this.

Now doesn't this sound exactly AS?

Both my wife and I were extraordinarily ... disdainful.

But, the problem was that she would destroy innocent things, innocent people, people who were simply of an average or below-average IQ, because she would interpret their actions as conscious - when those actions were really subconsious.
I was extremely conflicted, because I was place in a situation where I had to protect essentially innocent people from the wrathful and disdainful 'utter-ness' of my wife. Protecting my wife from such things I can handle, but I cannot resolve having to protect others from my wife.
This caused far too much conflict, and so we are now divorced. I wish that we weren't; I did marry her, and only her.

So, looking back, I knew she was not 'human', and so I derived the science, 'Anthroponomy' based on living with my wife ... who simply was entirely different than a typical human. Because of her destructiveness, and because she wasn't able to be intimate, I placed her as a homo-sapiens/sociopath ... not knowing anything about Autism or AS.
But now that I know I'm AS, and what Autism is, I am more inclined to think she is AS, and not sociopathic.
She likes comic books and superheroes and graphic novels. She is an extreme geek in her own way, multi-tasking super-humanly (which always amazed me); ex: one time talking on the phone with a govenmental agency and learning about how things work while playing 'Minesweeper' as if doodling ... and while reading a book - all simultaneously. No joke.
She did all 3 of these things simultaneously - 2 of them better than I could do any one of them concentratively, and reading the book with just as much comprehension as if I were reading it concentratively.
You could test her comprehension on any one of these tasks, and it would be absolute.
She is extremely gifted.
She is also dysfunctional in many ways.

Around when we got married, something-or-other dysfunctional happened and she exclaimed "Oh-no! ... We're too old to be Benny and Joon!"

You'd be hard-pressed to find someone who initiates more damage out of pure disdain than my ex-wife.

Even so, I now think she is AS and I still find that AS do not naturally or tend to initiate hurt. I understand my ex-wife; I was married to her, we lived together. Most of our communication was unspoken, however, and we rarely talked about anything.
It was only that one discussion about an average human's behavior that strongly reveiled what was going on inside her thoughts and feelings. She simply did not understand them, at all.

My wife called herself "The Immolator", and I was known as "Mr. Scaryman" (an offtake on my last name, "Skenderian"). My wife explained that she self-destructed, taking out everything around her ... which was very true.
I still consider her my wife, as I married her, and I would like to be there for her, because she is so very self-destructive, and I think I would be able to provide what she needs, now that I understand so much more.

She is very hurt, and most extremely sensitive, and totally wrathful with anything that might upset her. If she doesn't like something, she just hates it the more she thinks about it, and she wants to destroy it. She obsesses over the things that bother her.

She is highly eccentric, with the strongest of personal preferences, has little sense of humor, cannot be intimate successfully, hates most places and most people, obviously feels much different from everything, de-humanizes humans, and is very uncompromisingly elitist.


My wife did exactly the same, although she never knew she was AS.
It's a small step from who and what I am to who and what my wife is.
The difference is that I understand people much more, where-as she has a nearly complete lack of understanding, feeling of similarity to, or sense of identiry with. Given these things, I would probably be very similar to my wife in her destructiveness. I already have a tendency to carry the same disdain for everything.

Disdain seems a common obstacle for many AS, from what I am seeing. I have that very difficulty myself, and I would say it is an 'obstacle'.

I am 'utter' in my disdain; no question.

I see that many AS find means to deal with that disdain with various philosophies, viewpoints, and feelings of Universal unity. I also do this, but it does depend on my circumstance and how 'connected' I feel to things. I feel fairly connected to Autistics, but I do not feel connected with anything else. I am currently full of utter disdain for everything except Autism. It is difficult for me to be 'objective' through this amount of disdain. I am 'objective' for the sake of other Auts which I care about, an I am objective for the sake of truth.


Sorry ... "pal".
But "pal" is something I am not. I do not accept your "pal" ... 'buddy-boy'.
Maybe you are hurtful, after all. I think I'll hurt you back, real bad ... so you never, ever even think about hurting at me ever again.

Here I am, saying that Autistics shouldn't hurt each other ... and so you come barging at me, all full of hurtfulness. I started out as "mate" ... and then become "pal". What happened? Did you get worked up about something?

Also, I never put rose-tinted glasses on. The glasses I put on were very clear, and, at the time, showed things as very bleak and not at all rosey. I put these glasses on years before knowing anything about Autism. I created the basis for the science of Anthroponomy years before I discoved I was AS, before I ever considered Autism.

What I saw through these clear glasses was true and was based on facts. I simply place Autism in this truth, and it appears to fit effortlessly. I cannot define Autistic as 'human'. I had already distinguished between 'human' and 'sociopath' before this, and I had already discovered that 'human' was a spectrum before this, ranging from homo-sapiens (AKA 'sociopaths', with insufficient or missing human traits) to what I termed 'Human Beings' (having full human traits) - depending on the individual and the amount of human traits they were born with and possess. This is nothing 'bad' at all. When you understand it, it is utmost humanitarian; sociopaths are similar to Autistics in that they are not human and yet must behave like humans. However, humans behave as they do because of their feelings - and sociopaths do not have those feelings. So sociopaths live in a very isolated hell, hate themselves, are unable to derive satisfaction, etc. bad stuff - all because humans insist that "All men are created equal.."

It is very natural for Human Beings to insist on this, as it is most humanitarian. It is difficult for compassionate beings to deny the 'equality' of others. I cannot expect Human Beings to do this, because scientific proof is needed for them to be able to do this. They must know beyond a shadow of a doubt, as denying the humanity of someone who looks human is unthinkable and unbearable for a compassionate being. But it is necessary that they do this, if they are going to be able to ever stop having their societies destroyed from within by 'wolves in sheep's clothing' - or homo-sapiens animals. Hence an applied science is required for this function; hence I created Anthroponomy.

Morality causes more suffering than anything. Morality is not about what-is-true, but is exactly the opposite; it is about what people 'want-to-be-true' ... while denying what is true. The 'wanting' is the denial. No good ever comes of this. Good comes from understanding and acknowledging what-is true; from there, real progress can now be made. As long as the truth is denied, no progress can be made, and people must continue to suffer through all the things that are untrue ... just like we have to.

Anthroponomy is the opposite of 'rose-tinted glasses'; it is a most controversial proposal, and points right at the heart of a most agonizing prospect which is difficult to even listen to ... precisely because there are no rosey tints.

Not all people are human.

Everyone will have difficulty with this. I had difficulty with this. But it is the ultimate compassion. Not everyone is the same, so the people on this planet have to stop believing that everyone is the same. We are so diffeent as to be what is really different species, based on our intangible traits. Charging that everyone is human causes much to much suffering and is the root of all social destruction, and the cause of every civilization's downfall. Humans will have a most difficult time accepting this.

Except we can discover what is true and then make progress. Far better than humans can. I am able to do this; I have faith and reason to believe, from what I see on these and other forums, that 'we' Autistics can do this for ourselves.

But, on the emotional side, I was smashed by my wife. I regretted my anger with her, and her leaving, immediately after she left. I was still furious with her, however. We tore each other up nicely. After she left, I felt like a complete idiot; I drove my own wife away. That wasn't why I married her. After she left, I just couldn't hurt her anymore, and I hoped that we could reconcile.
Nope. None of that; she obliterated me in every way she could. She was utter. She did every heinous thing imaginable. I let her do whatever she wanted, and I put up no contest; I didn't want to, anymore.

It took years for me to get over all of this. I was simply hurt beyond all belief (no-one can hurt me anything like my wife can, and no-one can hurt her except me), enraged beyond belief, and full of hate. Hate is horrible; it has a life of its own and boils and stews and poisons everything. I feeds on itself and wants to grow and take over everything.
Anger is a horrible feeling. Being AS, it appears that anger is more difficult to 'express' out of one's self. It is for me; learning that I was AS was a turning-point for my understanding and being ble to deal with my anger.
But hate is far, far worse. I never hated before, like I hated my wife.
It took years of work to deal with that anger and hatred, and I can't say that it's not still there. It just got stockpiled into the already over-flowing heap of anger.

You appear very angry. You attacked me, personally, for my attempt here to be positive and constuctive.

I can understand the anger you would have from what you describe, and I can imagine it still eating horribly at you.

I can also understand your attacking a person who places themselves in a position of 'authority' - by making authoritative statements; I have done the same throughout my own life. I have always attacked those who self-profess themselves any kind of authority. I've even ranted about 'people speaking for me' this on this forum.
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postp1377489.html#1377489
There is a delineated rant entitled "Rant..." in my post, completely off-topic in my own posted topic "Working together."
I am ranting against so-called 'authorities'.

I do make authoritative statements, because I am tired of being falsely modest and I am tired of opinions, and I am tired of 'negotiating' socially by placing what I see as facts as my opinions, instead. There is a difference between what I want to be true and what is true. Everyone has to deal with this conflict. I deal with it by identifying the difference and making statements about what-is-true. These are authoritative statements, yes. I can find no reason to make any other kinds of statement about what appears evident to me.

I am not your enemy.

I am not out to do any hurt or harm or damage to you.

I make authoritative statements because I am tired of a lack of progress, and am tired of opinions, and am tired of being 'nice'. I am friendly, understanding, accepting, and kind .. but 'nice' is something I ascribe to a social morality and a means of being liked and accepted by others. I do want to be accepted by others - but not at the cost of my compromising truth; I do not benefit from thati n the end, and those I must compromise truth for are people I do not want or need - and understand that I should not - have in my life, or seek acceptance from.

If you disagree with the statements I make ( and the real meaning of them, not an interpretation), then I would prefer that you work towards a common goal of knowing and understanding what is true. There is no reason I can find for you to be angy with me. If you have a problem with me, please state it outright.
If I am doing something you find offensive or hurtful to you - in whatever way - please say so ... even if it is just a subjective feeling. All of those feelings are undertandable, and I cannot imagine my not having them, also.

From what you have expressed, I can gain no facts from. I think we benefit more from understanding the facts, and using them to understand what is true.
I also understand the need to express subjectively; I do so all the time.

But can we attempt to help each other remain focused on fact and truth, even through our individual hurt and anger and disdain and everything else we might feel?

If anything, you have someine here who understands everything you might feel; me. But not just me ... we all appear to have the same feelings and views; I see them repeatedly, even through the philosophies and individual means of dealing with those feelings and views.

Let us see that we are all so very similar, and that we share the same feelings and views. We each deal with these on our own individual basis, but those feelings and views are still there, none-the-less - and the fact that they are there is why we each do deal and cope with them in our individual ways.

It appears to me that the very best way to deal with the feelings and views we have are to understand them as best as we can, and to look at facts to achieve an understanding of what is true ... regardless of what we each might want to be true.

I will not ever deny you right to feel the way you do; I can only understand that all too well.

But I am not the one who has caused the hurt in your life, nor do I want to be.
Please do not hurt me for wanting all of this.

If you think there is something better to do with our resource to be able to discuss things, then I am completely interesting in hearing.

There is a place to express your feeling, and the suport and understanding is absolutely here, and can be here more-so if we work together to understand what we are really doing - and why we are each here on this forum.

I can only see this forum as a vehicle for expression and understanding and acceptance, and as a vehicle for our making progress so that we do not have to continue to accept and sustain these onslaughts of situations which cause these feelings.

Yes, we have to express our feelings and, yes, we are each looking for understanding and belonging and acceptance - and whatever else - and we need to do this before we can act positively to make progress for ourselves.

I think this is simple, accurate, and obvsious, once you see it.

It is just dificult to see through all the overwheliming things we must contend with in life. Emotions come smashing through everywhere, and I am no exception to this. It can be very difficult to remain focused. It is difficult for me.

I want to express myself and be understood and accepted - and I want to make progress so that I do not have to continue to sustain the never-ending offense, hurt, idiocy, etc., that I have been taking for 45 years - to simply uncomprehensible levels.

If there is something different that you want, something different that you see we could be doing which you view as a better alternative, then I would want to understand what you see as a better purpose which reflects the truth better.

Do you agree with my statements as true, or do you have other statements that better reflect the truth?

This is a discussion, and we all want to know. I feel comfortable making that statement.