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Clarifying the Boundary Between HFA and AS

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NeantHumain
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04 May 2008, 7:37 pm

Tails wrote:
In fact, there's a lot of debate about the interchangeability of the two terms. The main difference is usually agreed to be the age of language development, in which AS children reach all their expected developmental milestones in this area, where as HFA will have a significant delay in developing language skills.

Since a new version of the DSM will be coming out in a few years, the diagnostic criteria are likely to change anyway, so what I'm looking at is an underlying essence of each condition.



LostInSpace
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04 May 2008, 8:48 pm

equinn wrote:
I know what he means. If a person with a disability is coddled and handled too carefully, despite their cognitive abilities, they are more likely to grow up less able to function regardless of the label.


I would argue that sometimes "coddling" can be helpful if it involves teaching the person functional skills rather than just tossing them out on their own. For instance reviewing with an Aspie teenager/young adult how to create (and stick to) a budget, or helping them learn housekeeping skills (laundry, cooking, etc.). I would rather give my kid a little extra support if it means they have the skills they need to care for themselves.



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04 May 2008, 9:01 pm

equinn wrote:
My son said to me, just this morning, that if a child's parents are too nice, the child will never be able to leave home or get married. I thought this was a fairly decent insight for an eight-year old to make.


LOL....hahahaha. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

i have a question: would you force him to socialize with other people?


2ukenkerl wrote:
You are VERY right! Cats and dogs, in the wild, act cooperatively.(Failure to cooperate can mean NO FOOD!) Birds shove their young out of the nest. Humans are perhaps the only primates to sometimes coddle others like this.


You're right. However, that "parenting" results in a shedload of dead birds on the floor and massive attrition.


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matsuiny2004
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04 May 2008, 9:32 pm

Tails wrote:
2ukenkerl wrote:
ACTUALLY, though there is NO requirement that HFA have such a disability, the DSM DOES say no clinically significant impairment with cognition or self help skills(outside of social). So your idea of "Many people with AS can be quite disabled and confused by rudimentary daily living skills." is wrong.


The DSM has been severely challenged on this especially in recent years. this is why most assessments will include life-skills and self-help skills. After all, for persons with any sort of impairment in interacting with their environment are bound to have recursive affects on daily living issues. For example, the sensory overlap is so great that it is bound to have an impact.

In other words, what anuend said :P

I'm a person with AS who has such problems (and I'm ONLY dx'd with AS, twice in fact, at 14 and 21), therefore I'm obviously NOT wrong about AS people plausibly having difficulties in that area.

Persons vs criteria... criteria will alway be too narrow, as we are all very different in how out ASDs present, even if we all share core traits to some degree.


The DSM 4 has a diagnosis for oppositional defiance disorder :roll:



matsuiny2004
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04 May 2008, 9:36 pm

NeantHumain wrote:
To me, the people with high-functioning autism seem to have a largely different set of problems and difficulties than people with Asperger's syndrome. People with HFA have problems with oral expressive language and basic self-help skills (dressing themselves, preparing their own food, using the bathroom). For aspies, these problems are not significant. The HFA's IQ tends to be somewhat lower (i.e., not ret*d instead of tending towards average or better intelligence).

I should like to say that, if possessing enough money and having a means of transportation, the aspie could make it to the grocery store or clothing store to buy their groceries or clothes successfully; they may come off as odd to the clerks and cashiers and may not enact the socially expected roll of temporary best friend of the cashier (or may overcompensate in a naïve and childish but nevertheless unsuccessful fashion); the aspie may be socially anxious, confused by unfamiliar shelves or aisles but nevertheless able to trudge on. Our HFA friend, on the other hand, would declare, as if by fiat, an inability to do such things because of the complexity of the steps involved or sensory overload.

In other hands, an aspie can function at the rudimentary survival level but fails with the finesse of subtle social communication; the HFA fails at achieving a modicum of independent living.



HFA is not an officialy recognized diagnostic term, it is an informal diagnosis given to people on the autism spectrum



2ukenkerl
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04 May 2008, 9:43 pm

Warsie wrote:
equinn wrote:
My son said to me, just this morning, that if a child's parents are too nice, the child will never be able to leave home or get married. I thought this was a fairly decent insight for an eight-year old to make.


LOL....hahahaha. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

i have a question: would you force him to socialize with other people?


If ONLY it was TRULY so easy! I have been trying to get this one guy to REALLY try to socialize, make friends, etc.... Yet he REALLY can't seem to do that. Maybe you have already figured out the punch line, but WE have just given up. Maybe it is just a lost cause. Oh yeah, the punch line? That guy is ME! 8-(


Warsie wrote:
2ukenkerl wrote:
You are VERY right! Cats and dogs, in the wild, act cooperatively.(Failure to cooperate can mean NO FOOD!) Birds shove their young out of the nest. Humans are perhaps the only primates to sometimes coddle others like this.


You're right. However, that "parenting" results in a shedload of dead birds on the floor and massive attrition.
[/quote]

OK, well several birds ALSO die trying to fend off supposed challengers!



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04 May 2008, 9:46 pm

matsuiny2004 wrote:
NeantHumain wrote:
To me, the people with high-functioning autism seem to have a largely different set of problems and difficulties than people with Asperger's syndrome. People with HFA have problems with oral expressive language and basic self-help skills (dressing themselves, preparing their own food, using the bathroom). For aspies, these problems are not significant. The HFA's IQ tends to be somewhat lower (i.e., not ret*d instead of tending towards average or better intelligence).

I should like to say that, if possessing enough money and having a means of transportation, the aspie could make it to the grocery store or clothing store to buy their groceries or clothes successfully; they may come off as odd to the clerks and cashiers and may not enact the socially expected roll of temporary best friend of the cashier (or may overcompensate in a naïve and childish but nevertheless unsuccessful fashion); the aspie may be socially anxious, confused by unfamiliar shelves or aisles but nevertheless able to trudge on. Our HFA friend, on the other hand, would declare, as if by fiat, an inability to do such things because of the complexity of the steps involved or sensory overload.

In other hands, an aspie can function at the rudimentary survival level but fails with the finesse of subtle social communication; the HFA fails at achieving a modicum of independent living.



HFA is not an officialy recognized diagnostic term, it is an informal diagnosis given to people on the autism spectrum


HFA IS in the DSM!



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04 May 2008, 9:56 pm

matsuiny2004 wrote:
The DSM 4 has a diagnosis for oppositional defiance disorder :roll:


From the mayo clinic...

Quote:
Signs and symptoms
It may be tough at times to recognize the difference between a strong-willed or emotional child and one with oppositional defiant disorder. Certainly there's a range between the normal independence-seeking behavior of children and oppositional defiant disorder. It's normal to exhibit oppositional behaviors at certain stages of a child's development.

However, your child's issue may be oppositional defiant disorder if your child's oppositional behaviors:

Are persistent
Have lasted at least six months
Are clearly disruptive to the family and home or school environment
The following are behaviors associated with ODD:

Negativity
Defiance
Disobedience
Hostility directed toward authority figures
These behaviors might cause your child to regularly and consistently show these symptoms:

Frequent temper tantrums
Argumentativeness with adults
Refusal to comply with adult requests or rules
Deliberate annoyance of other people
Blaming others for mistakes or misbehavior
Acting touchy and easily annoyed
Anger and resentment
Spiteful or vindictive behavior
Aggressiveness toward peers
Difficulty maintaining friendships
Academic problems
Related mental health issues
Oppositional defiant disorder often occurs along with other behavioral or mental health problems such as attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder (ADHD), anxiety or depression. The symptoms of ODD may be difficult to distinguish from those of other behavioral or mental health problems.

It's important to diagnose and treat any co-occurring illnesses because they can create or worsen irritability and defiance if left untreated. Additionally, it's important to identify and treat any related substance abuse and dependence. Substance abuse and dependence in children or adolescents is often associated with irritability and changes in the child or adolescent's usual personality.


OK, what ****IDIOT**** thought THAT one up!?!?!? Since when is it a disorder to be a normal kid!?!?!? I guess we are supposed to be mindless automatons, huh!?!?



matsuiny2004
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04 May 2008, 10:36 pm

2ukenkerl wrote:
matsuiny2004 wrote:
NeantHumain wrote:
To me, the people with high-functioning autism seem to have a largely different set of problems and difficulties than people with Asperger's syndrome. People with HFA have problems with oral expressive language and basic self-help skills (dressing themselves, preparing their own food, using the bathroom). For aspies, these problems are not significant. The HFA's IQ tends to be somewhat lower (i.e., not ret*d instead of tending towards average or better intelligence).

I should like to say that, if possessing enough money and having a means of transportation, the aspie could make it to the grocery store or clothing store to buy their groceries or clothes successfully; they may come off as odd to the clerks and cashiers and may not enact the socially expected roll of temporary best friend of the cashier (or may overcompensate in a naïve and childish but nevertheless unsuccessful fashion); the aspie may be socially anxious, confused by unfamiliar shelves or aisles but nevertheless able to trudge on. Our HFA friend, on the other hand, would declare, as if by fiat, an inability to do such things because of the complexity of the steps involved or sensory overload.

In other hands, an aspie can function at the rudimentary survival level but fails with the finesse of subtle social communication; the HFA fails at achieving a modicum of independent living.



HFA is not an officialy recognized diagnostic term, it is an informal diagnosis given to people on the autism spectrum


HFA IS in the DSM!



no it is not

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-functioning_autism

neither is AS

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asperger_syndrome

It is not a book you want to be in. Being gay was considered a disease by the DSM until 1973

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual#Politics



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04 May 2008, 11:26 pm

matsuiny2004,

HFA is allowed for in the DSM-IV-TR; it's an Axis-I diagnosis of Autistic Disorder without an Axis-II of Mental Retardation. It is there, and this is how researchers see it (they were the ones who coined the terms "HFA" and "LFA").

Generally, people with AS have problems with self-helps skills due to their interest getting in the way of learning basic things, and/or executive dysfunction (the DSM-IV-TR states the former). Which is the same in Autistic Disorder (HFA/LFA), it's just that the latter is usually [far] more severe than the former to most professionals, and how it "appears" to outside observers is different.

I see many ways to look at the "HFA" and AS thingy (mainly because I've read most of the opinions by professionals); these are the two main ones:

Lorna Wing [and those who agree with her] will state that individuals with Autistic Disorder who have a normal level of intelligence are exactly the same as those with AS as the IQ is what defines how "autistic" someone is. They like the "Asperger's" label as it doesn't have the negative connotations of "autism". She says she has research to back this up.

Others will state that the one-third of those with Autistic Disorder that have a normal level of intelligence manifest the reciprocal social and repetitive behaviours differently to those with Asperger's (where nearly all have a normal level of intelligence); the two disorders are of a similar severity, but the details differ between the two. These people say they have research to back this up.

To me, basing severity on overall IQ, or verbal IQ in reality, is just as cookie cutter as AS/HFA equating to being different, it just transfers a group who have a similar level of intelligence, but the disorder manifests outwardly different.



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07 May 2008, 10:29 am

I would like to know is how does one accurately measure intelligence in people like us. I have tested as low as mentally ret*d (developmentally delayed for those who want to be politically correct), to as high as genius. Psychologists may be able to accurately measure the IQ of neuro-typical people, but I don't see how they can accurately measure the IQ's of Autistic people like me.


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