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Alexey
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14 May 2008, 12:38 pm

anja wrote:
I thought the "lack of empathy" referred to how aspies have difficulties reading body language and facial expressions.

I've asked several NT's about their way of reading non-verbal communication: they have "built-in" mechanism that converts non-verbal clues into emotions directly and almost without realizing. E.g. I've asked my mother about doing emotional "aura" of conversation: she is even not realizing it and thinks that it is "natural".
I have such thing too, but it is slow and not accurate: my EQ is 20 (AQ is 32); so immediate emotional response and emotional involvement may be not obvious for me and require extra energy compared to NT.



krex
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14 May 2008, 12:47 pm

LoveableNerd wrote:
krex wrote:
I would like to know who and how they came up with the questions for this test. I scored 26 but think I am a very empathetic person. I work in social services and often feel so much pain at the discomfort of the clients I work with that it is painful. I may not be able to give a hug or know what to say but I try and "problem solve" to alleviate as much of their pain and discomfort as possible. The NT's I worked with appeared unaffected and indifferent to it.


I think the fact that we "problem solve" instead of communicate our sympathy with their feelings in a comforting way is what they mean when they say we lack empathy. That is one reason the average scores were so much higher for women than men. If you buy into the whole venus/mars thing, women are supposedly more likely to want this "empathy" for their problems, whereas men are more likely to offer them practical solutions to the problems. Hence the argument that aspies have an "extreme male" brain, regardless of gender.


Well, I agree that that is the issue but my point is that they need to reword the DX and stop telling people we lack empathy just because we show it differently(it carries a very negative value judgement in our society). It is a harmful stereo-type as empathy is a very valued trait. It is considered one of the hallmarks, separating humans for animals,(which is absurd because I know animals can often tell when we are sad and hurt and offer comfort the best they can). Anyway...I don't see it as better to offer some empty words rather then try and alleviate the actual suffering.


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ThatRedHairedGrrl
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14 May 2008, 12:50 pm

Great question!

Empathy. The word comes from the Greek for 'feel within'. To me, it's the ability to out yourself in someone else's shoes, to 'get inside' their feelings and understand why they're feeling the way they are, in the way you'd understand if you were having those feelings.

Now, this isn't something I have trouble with. But I do often have trouble knowing how to respond. I often say that I'm a wuss around other people's pain, and it's true; if someone is crying round me, I don't know how to react. That doesn't mean I don't understand or share their feelings - they can be very clear, and perhaps too intense - it's the actual behavioral aspect of dealing with them that gets me.

Of course, an interesting point is that while many AS folks have made a conscious effort to understand the way NTs feel, there are plenty of NTs who - in spite of supposedly having more 'natural' empathy - don't appear to understand, or even be prepared to try and understand, how we feel. Which puts a whole different spin on things, I think!


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Twibbit
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14 May 2008, 2:11 pm

scored an 8...

despite that I think I do have some innate empathy. I after all never like to see people crying/upset. I just tend to not know why they are feeling this way.



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14 May 2008, 2:36 pm

I scored a 45 out of 80 on the EQ test. However, my problem is more expressing my empathy.

I think a lot of autistics experience empathy, but either don't express it, or mistake it for something else.



Fred54
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14 May 2008, 2:39 pm

Marrshu wrote:
I think a lot of autistics experience empathy, but either don't express it, or mistake it for something else.

Yup, this is what I am often saying to my GF, I feel things but can not express them :(


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Bozewani
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14 May 2008, 2:44 pm

I scored 40, right down the middle

You know I try to be empathetic, but I wished I knew so these results are somewhat accurate, somewhat not (Just like SAT scores)

I try to be concerned, really, I do but I am not sure.



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14 May 2008, 2:46 pm

I agree about the aspie desire to "problem-solve" in crisis situations. I feel uncomfortable when others are suffering, and the best thing I know how to do is present possible solutions, point out irrationalities. Recently, this actually happened with my aspie partner. I kept talking at him about how everything could work out and asking questions, and he eventually was able to tell me that he just needed me to hug him and be with him. I honestly had no idea--but now I know for next time, I think.



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14 May 2008, 3:38 pm

I find it easier to express empathy to other people when my senses are not overstimulated. It sounds selfish but i constantly have to cope with my own racing mind. I respond to something by instantly forming a picture in my mind first, intead of automatically responding to words and situations. Emotionally I think I have more empathy than many people because I can itensely live myself into situations, visualising it into the finest details with no effort. It is expressing empathy, the right amount at the right time, that space space between being overbearing and being aloof that is difficult to master.

Would be great if everyone was trying to figure out empathy and theory of mind when dealing with Aspies.


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Willard
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14 May 2008, 3:45 pm

krex wrote:
II work in social services and often feel so much pain at the discomfort of the clients I work with that it is painful. I may not be able to give a hug or know what to say but I try and "problem solve" to alleviate as much of their pain and discomfort as possible. The NT's I worked with appeared unaffected and indifferent to it.


Often as not, a seeming lack of empathy may come from not knowing how to demonstrate empathy naturally, or feeling so awkward about the other person's discomfort or unhappiness that I simply say nothing and it's easy for others to assume I didn't care.

Then again, there's sometimes a larger question of precisely who or what I'm supposed to be empathizing with. I always liked that Charles Schultz Peanuts quip: "I love mankind, it's people I can't stand."



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14 May 2008, 3:49 pm

I'm proud to say I do not have empathy.

I have logical situation-analysis capabilities. That is to say I can attempt to account for the significant influences upon a given situation and thus analyse what the available options and potential thought processes would be for a person under said circumstances....... BUT I cannot and will not empathise.



sinagua
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14 May 2008, 3:52 pm

tharn wrote:

Sometimes I watch the news, and it's obvious that a particular area is going through hard times - through no fault of its own - and some of the residents are still selflessly looking after their neighbors. I experience sorrow at the tragedy, and then a sense of appreciation and hope for mankind. When someone abuses an animal, it's hard for me to choke down my pity and my desire to strangle the abuser. Of all the spectrum people I've met, I've never found these types of reactions to be lacking in them either!

So what behavior is it that they expect in order for me to be labeled "empathic"? Do I have to be able to read the emotions people are hiding, or not fully expressing? Maybe they should learn how to express their emotions properly. I know any emotion I feel, I either express honestly or keep it to myself, and I don't expect others to read my mind - is that so much to ask of others? Am I expected to break into tears every time I see some shmaltzy movie or tearful trailer park reunion on a talk show? The fact is that more often than not, people are being manipulative with the emotions they express, or shallow, or just wallowing about in their own drama. So sue me if I exercise a bit of restraint until I know more about the person or the circumstances.

So yeah, I'm tired of the notion that we lack empathy. I think it's an inaccurate and unfair conclusion based on psychometric tests that can't properly measure what they claim to measure, and the ridiculous assumption that because we don't communicate emotions the way THEY do, that we just don't have them. Stuff and non-sense. :P



I agree with this.

If anything, I think I'm often MORE emotional or empathetic than most NTs I know. Growing up (and even as an adult) I so often felt (and feel) like I was the only person who was outraged when someone was cruel to another person, or child, or an animal. I felt like I was always looking around me going, "Am I the ONLY PERSON HERE who sees this and thinks it's WRONG and totally unacceptable? Apparently, yes!" My family excuses the most horrible, cruel, even violent behavior from my little nephew, for instance, because "he's just a little boy" and "boys will be boys." :? When my son with AS sobbed and screamed when his cousin spat in his face, instead of getting after the spitting cousin, my family chastised MY SON - said he was just "too sensitive." 8O :evil: There are even worse things I won't mention.

None of them have seen me or my son since. It's been years.

In summary, if anything, I feel like I'm MORE empathetic than most people I know, even though I generally prefer to spend most of my time alone.



samantca
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14 May 2008, 3:59 pm

Your Empathy Quotient (EQ) is 20 out of 80



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14 May 2008, 4:04 pm

It depends on what you define as empathy. Technically, I don't show much empathy, but I feel a lot of compassion and sympathy.


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silkboy
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14 May 2008, 4:04 pm

sinagua confuses a sense of wrong with empathy. People with AS tend to have an incredibly active sense of determining what is wrong. That is one of the cornerstones of their lives. Which is also the reason why I read that statement and feel a compulsion to correct it. I notice things that are wrong everywhere. And we hate what is wrong. It is the core of one of our strongest emotions. Many times our "empathy" mistakenly believes that those around us should be as disturbed as we are by that which is wrong.

By definition those with AS do have a limited or non-existant natural sense of empathy for those around us. Either we project our own responses onto others (which tends to not be very accurate) or else we have rationalized and come to understand "rules" of what things probably mean. So we can do things such as pick up on cues from others, not because we do it instinctively, but because we have developed habits to apply the rules we have learned. Functionally it is probably wrong to say that those with AS have no empathy, as we are able to exhibit it. It just is not natural for us, it is deduced.



SotiCoto
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14 May 2008, 4:09 pm

silkboy wrote:
sinagua confuses a sense of wrong with empathy. People with AS tend to have an incredibly active sense of determining what is wrong. That is one of the cornerstones of their lives. Which is also the reason why I read that statement and feel a compulsion to correct it. I notice things that are wrong everywhere. And we hate what is wrong. It is the core of one of our strongest emotions. Many times our "empathy" mistakenly believes that those around us should be as disturbed as we are by that which is wrong.

Problematic when one considers that... statistically speaking.... EVERYTHING we presume to know is most likely wrong.
"Wrongness" is the fundamentally default state of our perceptions.... and even were something not so, we have no reliable means of knowing, enough that it would be more practical to assume there is no "Right"; merely "Wrong" and "More Wrong".