AS and BPD

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Am was told that there can be wonky moods within all ASDs,and it doesn't always mean BPD [bipolar,not borderline pd].
the 'severe' aspie am used to live with [the one have often mentioned on here] had very severe problems with wonky moods-other people get sectioned for a lot less than what she does,but because a specialist had said it was part of her autism,they refused to let her be sectioned [though they tried to section am without thought for meltdowns, to force am to be checked out at a and e].
not sure how much they can put to autism,and how much of it they put to another disorder.

am think if have some sort of ASD and think might have BPD,try and get an appointment with an autism specialist so they can see it from the autism side as well as mh.


[edit]
ignore am,have just reread thread,didnt know it was about borderline.
dont know why there are two different conditions with the same initials,always makes things confusing.

I am not so sure about that. After all, women are as indoctrinated into sexist stereotyping as men are, as far as I can tell. Look around in any given autistic community at how many autistic people are willing to go along with autism stereotypes, even the negative ones. We all grow up in the same world, after all, and that world has a tendency to teach people very young that the idea of a manipulative over-emotional drama queen (i.e. the less clinical terms for a negative stereotype of BPD) is a predominantly female idea. And the people taught that stereotype are both male and female.



Reverse the numbers in your head and you'll probably get it closer to accurate, at least within the inpatient psych system (and any outpatient or ostensibly-outpatient systems with similar enough power dynamics). The effect of setting up a power imbalance that strong and complete is that it's the exceptions who do not abuse that power in some way. I am quite grateful for those exceptions, who have literally saved my life at times, but I would not ever claim that they're in the majority.

Additionally, I have noticed that even outside the psychiatric system, and outside of any explicitly medical context, many professionals I know (whether medical or psychiatric -- and in this case I'm talking about people I happen to know personally as friends or acquaintances, not people I know as their patient) throw around the BPD label in exactly that manner in casual conversation. These are people who are, as far as I can tell, otherwise decent people. But they think it's okay to use the word 'borderline' to essentially mean "I don't like this manipulative b**ch".

That is part of what convinces me of its pervasiveness. I saw many girls technically too young for the diagnosis labeled that way in the psych system. I hear it from women all the time. I heard it when I was tied down and had nothing better to do than listen to conversations between various professionals. I have heard it from people who work within the system (trying to change it - much as I suspect that won't work) as a complaint they have about the way staff talk about patients. I've even heard of it making its way into the developmental system on occasion. And I've certainly heard it from patients who absorbed the word's more derogatory meanings, and use it against other people (and I've heard it plenty in whatever autistic community gossip I haven't been able to tune out, for that matter). But the thing that convinces me the most, is that those people I know, who are medical and psychiatric professionals of various kinds, see nothing wrong with using the term in that manner in casual conversation with friends, about women they do not like, specifically because they do not like them.

It's not just a diagnosis in that context -- it's also an epithet. It's like calling someone a 'ret*d' because you think they're stupid. In the system people rapidly learn to call people 'borderline' if they're female and sufficiently annoying. And like 'ret*d', it's often used on people who don't even have the diagnosis.

Just to add, I know what misdiagnosis is like; in the mental hostel back before I found out what was "wrong" with me, I was hit with nearly every Anxiety Disorder possible, and they were going to hit me with Schizophrenia, but since I only heard voices "once" [and I didn't think that things on the news pertained to me], they chalked up my eccentricities and oddness to the OCD label they gave me (I guess they never heard of Simple Schizophrenia, but that's beside the point).

Not that it bothers me at all that I had labels that didn't fit me (stuff like Panic Disorder and Social Anxiety Disorder), the difficulties I faced were the same.

I have traits of BPD, and I am bipolar and I have AS. It sucks, makes me an insensitive b***h.

I don't know what the hell to think anymore. I told my CMHN, (community mental health nurse) I thought I was AS, she said she thinks its BPD. She said my eye contact was only bad when I'm talking about things that make me uncomfortable. I do kind of fit into BPD but I don't fear abandonment. I'm actually quite happy left alone.

Another example she used was; looking at the clock and tutting loudly. She then said " You would understand what I meant, an autistic person would not."

All I know is I never fit in, I always feel on the outside looking in and I get depressed.

This wouldn't be a very objective diagnosis. The borderline's relationship instability revolves around distorted views of the relationship to the other and the role of the self and the impulsive, often self-destructive reaction to it. A borderline tends to see things in very black-and-white terms: good or evil, right or wrong, fair or outrageous, etc. It's not hard to see how oscillations between these extremes can lead to emotional hardship and intense reactions. Their view of the role of the self is similarly split into oscillating extremes. For a while, they want to be entirely independent and depend on no one; then they want the comfort of someone to nurture them. They often feel pushed in one direction or another by someone else and react strongly to it.

If a psychiatrist sees that a patient's social relationships are sparse, shaky, and often short lived, he or she should conclude the patient is highly introverted and not probably showing signs of the borderline psychodynamics. Anything else is almost a deliberate ramming of a patient into a preconceived diagnostic label (or ignorance, and a practicing psychiatrist really should know the difference between BPD and introversion).

Sure, probably an autistic would not, maybe even more than one of them would not understand what she meant. Equally, many would understand what she meant.

Mmm, the problem being it's not possible to cause someone to be objective.

I know quite a bit about BPD. While I never went to see a psychiatrist or therapist (like, that would have required talking about personal stuff, out loud, which once upon a time was a no way for me), I totally think I would have been diagnosable. Past. No longer. I've healed from the wounds that come out as BPD. Actually, more like wounds plus lack of skills for dealing with emotional stuff. I've learned skills.

I think people with BPD have a higher than average rate of of not being neurotypical, and this being different, and the traumas that come with it, contribute to developing BPD. Like, ADD, or the mild end of the spectrum, the broader autistic phrenotype (which aren't necessarily 3 separate things). (Or some other way of being not neurotypical). Like, close enough to normal to not be obviously different, but different enough to not fit in, or have difficulties, or such.

Ultimately, they are very different things, but they can overlap because they can co-exist.

As I see it, the AS traits I have, those are part of the essense of who I am. The BPD traits, those were wounds or lack of learning. Wounds can heal. Things I wasn't taught can be learned. Still, they were intertwined, interconnected.

P.S. I think if someone has BPD or BPD like traits and also AS or somewhere on the spectrum, if the AS isn't recognized, I think there's a limit to how well treating BPD is going to work. And that doesn't have to mean an AS diagnosis; more like just seeing the person as they are rather than trying to fit them into the NT box. You can't turn a aspie into a mentally healthy NT. But they can become a mentally healthy aspie. For me, part of the journey to mental health was learning to recognize and accept my differences. That being different didn't make me bad or unlikeable.

Think this hits the mark.

Another thing I have found with 'the professionals', they almost seem AS in the way they will latch on to one or 2 aspects to be able to fit you into a neat package..AS or BPD etc rather than looking at the whole. Its as if every time a variable is removed they will latch onto another variable rather than the constant.

I completely agree. I am diagnosed with BPD and I have BAP. Although not autistic, I am not NT either.

I spent a period of time cutting and they assumed it meant I was borderline - according to them it was a rouse to get attention. Which I thought was really interesting, since I had successfully hid it from everyone for years. Being accused of doing it for attention was really hurtful to me because it had taken a long time to work up the courage and develop the trust to tell my therapist about the cutting.
I think I might have some borderline traits but I don't try to manipulate people; the weirdness that sometimes attracts lots of attention is pretty much accidental. Sometimes I talk too loudly and share too much information, which can be seen as BPD, but it's really because I don't realize I'm overdoing it, or where the accepted social limit is.
I can see BPD being over DX'd in women too by accident (in cases where AS is really the answer).

But being impaired in reciprocal social interaction can lead to dramatic results .

Last edited by Apatura on 01 Aug 2008, 5:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Actually, I think people with BPD don't manipulate near so much as they are accused of. One book on BPD I read said a person with BPD attempting to honestly express what they are feeling can look manipulative because other people can't believe it's real. Also, it seems to me, (based on various things I've read and observed) that it's not so much that those with BPD are more manipulative than others, they just aren't as good at it. (And perhaps it's relevant to realize "others" is mostly NTs... I get the sense aspies don't tend to be manipulative.)

There's a lot of variation in BPD, actually. Not all with it are attention seeking. Though, yeah, there can be that.

I've another thought, but I'll have to post it later... got to go now.

To be manipulative I guess I would have to interact with people, but seeing as I spend my time avoiding them and quite happy avoiding...it seems a big part of the borderline symptoms are absent, in my case. I do not fear being left alone. I do not crave attention and would much rather be alone than stay in an unhappy relationship.

This does not seem to stop them thinking I am borderline. I think psychologists etc need to be able to slot people into boxes and hate it when u don't fit neatly into one of their catagories...so they force that square peg into the round hole.

As far as I can make out, AS = a different way of thinking. BPD = a serious mental disorder.

Though from the outside, both are sometimes "people we just don't understand".