introversion can be simmilar to aspergers

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04 Oct 2008, 5:30 am

In her book Through the Eyes of Aliens: A book about autistic people, Jasmine Lee O'Neill, who is autistic, writes that:

Quote:

Autistics are extreme examples of people who just need to be cloistered. [...] I do not believe that a true autistic ever comes out of himself.

She draws strong parallels between autism and introversion.

Danielismyname wrote:

Quote:

People with autism can't learn to partake in reciprocal social interaction anymore than the armless person can pick up things like everyone else.

Does that include reciprocal social interaction online which many autistic people like? I have interacted socially with other autistic people both online and offline.

Danielismyname
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04 Oct 2008, 5:37 am

Woodpeace wrote:

Does that include reciprocal social interaction online which many autistic people like? I have interacted socially with other autistic people both online and offline.

Online isn't how it's defined, unless of course you're speaking to someone via a webcam or something. You can interact socially, and there's nothing saying that people with Autism can't (most do as they develop), it's just that it's not normal give and take/two-way social interaction most times (and when it looks like it, it's mechanical in origin, i.e., scripted).

This is how Asperger's is defined; Autism tends to be more socially aloof (i.e., avoiding social interaction rather than the odd/eccentric, one-sided, interrupting approach of someone with AS).

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04 Oct 2008, 7:09 am

matsuiny2004 wrote:

the only part of social skills that is inherent is the ability to learn them, which autistic peole are capable of doing.

Actually, exhibiting non-verbal cues for example is at least partly inherited.

It's been investigated that people who're born blind display strikingly similar facial expressions and body language to their relatives, though they have never seen these expressions, being blind and everything, of course.

They may, though not necessarily so, have 'inappropriate' facial expressions too, but the point is: they display similar non-verbal cues though they could have never learnt them.

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04 Oct 2008, 7:30 am

That's maybe explain the overdiagnosis of AS

Society is not accepting Introverts anymore and hence Introversion is been seen as 'disorder' by psychiatrists

Even normal shyness as seen as disorder now , they are even doing surgeries to cure 'blushing'.

Or maybe there's too much mercury poisoning:

Quote:

As symptom of mercury poisoning

Excessive shyness, embarrassment, self consciousness and timidity, social-phobia and lack of self-confidence are also components of erethism, which is a symptom complex that appears in cases of mercury poisoning[2][3]. Mercury poisoning was common among hat makers in England in the 1700s and 1800s, who used mercury to stabilize the wool into felt fabric. The character the Mad Hatter in Lewis Carroll's Alice in Wonderland is claimed to be a depiction of a person with erethism, but the British Medical Journal argues that the character was based on Theophilus Carter, an eccentric furniture dealer who was known to Carroll[4].

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shyness#cite_note-1

interesting,eh? The "Autism-Vaccination link possibility is not yet over" thread must be called back or maybe it should be renamed to "Autism-Mercury link possibility is not yet over" since mercury doesn't just exist in drugs and in some vaccines ...but everywhere now.

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04 Oct 2008, 1:01 pm

Sora wrote:

matsuiny2004 wrote:

the only part of social skills that is inherent is the ability to learn them, which autistic peole are capable of doing.

they can still be learned, people all over the world are taught more complex facial expressions. I have heard people that have aspergers say they could recognize basic facial expressions automatically. The only facial expressions that scientists agree "normal" humans are inherently capable of knowing is happiness, sadness, surprise, fear, anger and disgust.

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04 Oct 2008, 1:08 pm

matsuiny2004 wrote:

That's why I said partly, I agree with you on most.

But not all with AS and other ASDs can read basic expression or even learn to do it.

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04 Oct 2008, 1:39 pm

Sora wrote:

matsuiny2004 wrote:

That's why I said partly, I agree with you on most.

But not all with AS and other ASDs can read basic expression or even learn to do it.

if you can not learn to do it then it does not qualify as autism. There is not even a place in the DSM that would say that. prosophenosia is the inability to learn or recognize facial expression. So yes if there was a comorbid I can agree, but if there is not then they should be completely capable.

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05 Oct 2008, 6:07 am

matsuiny2004 wrote:

So I don't have autism then, sure. (This was sarcasm.)

There's no place in the DSM that says you should be able to learn facial expressions and that only if you can, you're allowed to be considered to have any type of ASD.

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05 Oct 2008, 7:33 am

I'm sure if your special interest was the desire to learn [some] nonverbal body language, you'd do an ok job at it, as I doubt there's too many permutations of each basic expression. You'd have to expend considerable effort to do this, like learning mathematics for example. For "normal" people, they don't even know they learn it; it just comes to them.

People with Autism/Asperger's most likely won't bother doing this above because it's not in their interest.

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05 Oct 2008, 8:21 am

My therapist has said that too, about how most people with some form of autism are not primarily interested or try to, but are actually more drawn to their real interests. I am quite interested in learning it though.

Disgust, surprise, fear and especially anger are something I do not recognise from a mere face. I easily pick it out of the context, what people do and say rather than how they do and say it. Seeing less would be advantageous, I think. I take it non-autistic people do not use the whole face for recognition of facial expressions, but a couple of simple details. But that's just me guessing, I have no idea, I'm not the brain of a non-autistic person.

There are too many variations, most faces are very different. I see the expressions, how the face moves, but the movement does not fit a general pattern, because too many details are out of place due to the individuality of faces and expressions and the person who pulls a face. I cannot generalise in most contexts and I attribute that to my ASD.

I easily pick on that the face has changed, something non-autistic people tend to do not as fast as me. In my job, it usually goes that I see a child, recognise something is the matter because it's expression and whole demeanour has changed. And while I have realised that and think about what has happened and what was being said, the non-autistic people I work with have not yet recognised that a change has happened. It points to that I see too many details. So far, I do not exclude this to my PDD.

I can easily read artificial expressions (the whole spectrum I am aware of + mixed expressions) from photos, films and such. True! That was perfectly easy to learn for me, actually. But reading real facial expressions - hardly any.

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05 Oct 2008, 8:24 pm

Sora wrote:

matsuiny2004 wrote:

My point is that it never said you were incapable of learning. I showed what a person would have if they were considered incapable. I never said there could not be comorbids, but the inability would not be from autism.

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Last edited by matsuiny2004 on 05 Oct 2008, 8:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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05 Oct 2008, 8:27 pm

Sora wrote:

not true, my father reads the entire face and he is not autistic. What is wrong with seeing to many details? it is a good that you can see that. By the way psychiatry is a very subjective field in itself and it is not hard to make mistakes. It is from from a hard science and about as credible as a pseudoscience. This can be backed up by comparisons made with the success rate of tribal healers and psychiatrists. The tribal healers were more succesful or had the same success as the psychiatrists. As far as laerning have you not shown that you are capable of learning them? If you can learn those there are examples of the basic facial expressions.

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Last edited by matsuiny2004 on 05 Oct 2008, 8:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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05 Oct 2008, 8:32 pm

Danielismyname wrote:

The point is that they are still learning it and that any autistic person unless they have a comorbid or are being misdiagnosed should be capable. Even if it is hard would a person not take the time and effeort? people that have social difficulties due to ADHD (which is most likely genetic) have done it why not autistics? So what it is hard, put the effort in and learn. People that have OCD can rewire their brain I am pretty sure an autistic can change their perseveration. If it is hyperfocus then they should be completely capable of changing it. I have done this and so have havem any other people that have ADHD. There are even books of the many different facial expressions.

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