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Larval
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07 Dec 2005, 9:56 pm

Sophist wrote:
Structural differences aren't absolute evidence of functional abnormalities, but they can certainly be an indicator. Plus, if there's a positive correlation between such structural differences and a common set of behavioral symptoms, it's an even greater indicator of a direct relationship. It's not an absolute, but how often is science ever--especially with the human body?


But learning to ride a bike produces changes in the brain. So does having your eyes covered up as a baby. Big structual differences are hard to do, and have to be done young, but with the brain it can be especially hard to tell if something is caused by biology or environment because the brain changes with its environment.



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07 Dec 2005, 9:58 pm

NeantHumain wrote:
How can anyone truly be deficient of any moral sense? Psychopaths can and do say that something they've done or plan to do is wrong, illegal, or is going to hurt someone. It just doesn't prevent them from doing it. It's really a bit much to think that people who weren't brought up in dark closets could have zero moral sensibility, even psychopaths. Psychopaths just have a twisted attitude to justify their viciousness.


No, Psychopaths don't have a moral sense period. Oh sure they understand what others think is right or wrong, but they themselves are unable to see things in that light. They don't need to justify what they do because they lack the ability to percieve morals as anything beyond a mere social convention. They just do it and prepare for the consequences.



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07 Dec 2005, 10:17 pm

Larval wrote:
NeantHumain wrote:
How can anyone truly be deficient of any moral sense? Psychopaths can and do say that something they've done or plan to do is wrong, illegal, or is going to hurt someone. It just doesn't prevent them from doing it. It's really a bit much to think that people who weren't brought up in dark closets could have zero moral sensibility, even psychopaths. Psychopaths just have a twisted attitude to justify their viciousness.


No, Psychopaths don't have a moral sense period. Oh sure they understand what others think is right or wrong, but they themselves are unable to see things in that light. They don't need to justify what they do because they lack the ability to percieve morals as anything beyond a mere social convention. They just do it and prepare for the consequences.

This doesn't make sense. Are you saying that simply their moral development is stunted at the preconventional level, as described by Lawrence Kohlberg? Like psychopaths, children at the preconventional level of moral development cannot distinguish between mere social convention and universal principles of right and wrong. Actually, employers can do a simple screening for psychopaths/antisocial personalities (born, not by acquired brain injury) by seeing if they can make this distinction in their moral reasoning.

I cannot fathom how an utter void of moral sense, or conscience, really works or what it would be like to think in that way. It's very unintuitive.



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08 Dec 2005, 12:59 am

yeah, people don't like the idea that it is impossible to not be selfish, because it is such a omnipresent lesson in life that selfishness is like some kind of absolute evil that you must never (or almost never) indulge in instead of being an aspect of humanity. It amuses me when people seem to acknowledge that somewhere somehow there is this infinitely inhuman evil which may be a concept or it might physically exist, and that it taints humanity. Everything in life is human defined. There are no acts of man which are not part of the capability of humanity. People sometimes equate hitler with absolute evil. No, hitler was just as evil as some racist as*hole who you may know or have met who wants to kill em all and hates their guts, hitler was just in a position of power.

Think about it, doesn't it feel good to be a martyr? Doesn't it feel good to be "not selfish?" What if it didn't? What if you didn't care at all for the people you had an opportunity to be not-selfish for? Those of you who are "not selfish" take pride that you arent. You like being unselfish. You get pleasure from being unselfish. You don't get money for it, but to people, in most situations their pride is worth their lives.


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08 Dec 2005, 3:52 am

Totally agree with you Nomaken.

Most people don't like to think about this because they live on the level of social convention, not objectivity.

True objectivity is very scary to many people.



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08 Dec 2005, 4:03 pm

Sophist wrote:
I don't quite agree with Hare on that point. I've read a couple articles citing research done on true psychopaths who have been shown (I assume postmortem) to have some limbic structural differences.

Of course, I haven't done much reading on all the research out there. But I think it's biological and maybe even damage to the developing brain (my oh-so-typical answer for everything these days, hehe :lol: ).


Well I've done the research and let me tell you, Psycology is a psudo-science!! ! They don't know what I know because I'm a Scientologist!! :: said as I jump up and down on a couch ::

HEHEHEHEHE :lol: :lol: :lol:


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08 Dec 2005, 5:51 pm

Psychology isn't really much of a science, and neither is sociology. They are areas of study to be sure, but societies are more like an ever-changing art that you may partake a view and perhaps an understanding of. But it isnt a science like chemistry is a science. And psychology is just guess work. Although we've been doing a lot of guessing and keep moving towards a more complete model of guess-dom that seems to just be right.


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08 Dec 2005, 8:01 pm

I prefer Biopsychology-- it's as close to a hard science as Psychology gets. And one day, it will be considered a hard science. But for now, we don't know enough. So, alas, it's just guesswork.

But most of the abstract Freudian crapola nauseates me to no end. I think he's great to learn about as per history and highly fascinating. But for a professional who still refers back to such psychoanalytic times as applicable to today sounds like a scientologist to me.

And as for the changes in the brain: there is an average of change amongst people. A range of normal. Psychopathic brain abnormalities, to my knowledge, do not fall into that range. There is a general status quo amongst stucture with minute variation between person to person. But larger change is abnormal. Which is why it's noted as such.

And for "environment", when I refer to it (I should have been more specific), I mean like family influence and emotional influence. Not things like the environment on fetal development and such-- even though that is "environment," too. Kinda like the physical environment and the psychological environment. I don't believe psychopaths-- not Antisocial PDs but true Psychopaths-- are created by their psychological environment, like parental rearing. I think it's more heavily genetic and the physical environment.


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08 Dec 2005, 8:30 pm

Nomaken wrote:
yeah, people don't like the idea that it is impossible to not be selfish, because it is such a omnipresent lesson in life that selfishness is like some kind of absolute evil that you must never (or almost never) indulge in instead of being an aspect of humanity. It amuses me when people seem to acknowledge that somewhere somehow there is this infinitely inhuman evil which may be a concept or it might physically exist, and that it taints humanity. Everything in life is human defined. There are no acts of man which are not part of the capability of humanity. People sometimes equate hitler with absolute evil. No, hitler was just as evil as some racist a****** who you may know or have met who wants to kill em all and hates their guts, hitler was just in a position of power.

Think about it, doesn't it feel good to be a martyr? Doesn't it feel good to be "not selfish?" What if it didn't? What if you didn't care at all for the people you had an opportunity to be not-selfish for? Those of you who are "not selfish" take pride that you arent. You like being unselfish. You get pleasure from being unselfish. You don't get money for it, but to people, in most situations their pride is worth their lives.



I think we're lossing the context here,The question isn't whether we all have biological needs and drives,the question is whether some of us "lack empathy"-an essential quality in a social speicies-by choice or because we have a more difficult time wih implicit communication.

As for psychology- I used to be an enviromental determinist- and critical of the entire project .What changed my mind was realizing I had a long line of people in my family with a history of small odd ticks- none of which could have been role-modeled
because (1) they differed from person to person and (2) some of us spent very little time together.

On soc- if society is a cultural project we continously reinvent- why are societies so resistant to change?Examples-fundamentalism seemed to almost die out in the twenties, then came roaring back starting in the seventies-and has done so several other times in American history.Or, in the seventies, we thought the double sexual double standard was gone for good-
if you listen to young people its certainly back now.



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08 Dec 2005, 8:48 pm

Well i think a lot of us lack empathy by choice. But i think it is likely that we are insensative to certain desires that would cause us to learn stronger empathy.


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08 Dec 2005, 9:34 pm

It can be a very difficult concept to grasp, that of people lacking emotions.

Same way NTs often fail to grasp how Aspies are different.

Doesn't mean that they aren't really different, just that they are harder to understand.

As I recall, psychopaths are suprisingly predictable once you know what they are. They always act in the interests of survival. Also, they are suppose to be very 2D characters.



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08 Dec 2005, 10:55 pm

Sarcastic_Name wrote:
I myself never think of the needs of other people, it just doesn't come naturally to me. Sure, every now and then I may avoid a certain situation or place with someone because I know they don't like it, but that's just me being nice. Reading what I read, can someone give me a clear definition of what a psychopath is?

Wikipedia - PCL-R wrote:
Factor 1: Aggressive narcissism

* Glibness/superficial charm
* Grandiose sense of self-worth
* Pathological lying
* Cunning/manipulative
* Lack of remorse or guilt
* Shallow affect
* Callous/lack of empathy
* Failure to accept responsibility for own actions

Factor 2: Socially deviant lifestyle

* Need for stimulation/proneness to boredom
* Parasitic lifestyle
* Poor behavioral controls
* Early behavioral problems
* Lack of realistic, long-term goals
* Impulsivity
* Irresponsibility
* Juvenile delinquency
* Revocation of conditional release

Traits not correlated with either factor

* Promiscuous sexual behavior
* Many short-term marital relationships
* Criminal versatility



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08 Dec 2005, 11:47 pm

8O Eek! A lot of that sounds like me and two other family members.


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09 Dec 2005, 10:29 am

Sarcastic, just remember there is a high comorbidity rate between Psychopathy and ADHD. But many of those symptoms are applicable to ADHD, too, and they probably get "thrown into" a psychopathy description. You're just ADHD. Not to worry.


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10 Dec 2005, 7:21 pm

Sophist wrote:
Sarcastic, just remember there is a high comorbidity rate between Psychopathy and ADHD. But many of those symptoms are applicable to ADHD, too, and they probably get "thrown into" a psychopathy description. You're just ADHD. Not to worry.


I thought so, but it's still kind of freaky.


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