Revisiting Empathy in Asperger Syndrome

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23 Dec 2008, 10:01 pm

fantasy-2
persective taking-16
empathic concern-16
personal distress-3



Who_Am_I
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23 Dec 2008, 10:05 pm

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23 Dec 2008, 11:14 pm

Fantasy: 12
Perspective-taking: 6
Empathic concern: 12
Personal distress: 11

I'm not sure about this. Or maybe I just don't understand empathy. Do people really feel each other's emotions? The way I tend to feel is much more logically.



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24 Dec 2008, 12:06 am

Love ain't related to empathy. Love is actually love, which is an emotion; empathy ain't an emotion. We have sympathy, and that's probably a better thing than having both sympathy and empathy. Empathy is what whips the tribe into a frenzied state, and they go and do bad things in the name of the feelings they erroneously feel (empathy is a social construct for the group; sympathy is a more logical and individual state of reading others).

People with Autism/whatever "A" word you want, use intellect to deduce the emotional states of others; it's usually delayed, but it's there (this is coming straight from Tony Attwood). I'm assuming this is "affective empathy" they're talking about, and even Cohen writes in his paper that those with an ASD, once they realize that they've said something offensive and hurt someone's feelings, they then feel bad and refrain from doing it again (again, intellect).



millie
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24 Dec 2008, 12:19 am

Quote:
Anemone wrote:
Somebody likes us!

Who Cares? Revisiting Empathy in Asperger Syndrome
Kimberley Rogers, Isabel Dziobek, Jason Hassenstab, Oliver T. Wolf, Antonio Convit
J Autism Dev Disord (2007) 37:709–715

Quote:
"Abstract A deficit in empathy has consistently been cited as a central characteristic of Asperger syndrome (AS), but previous research on adults has predominantly focused on cognitive empathy, effectively ignoring the role of affective empathy. We administered the Interpersonal Reactivity Index (IRI), a multi-dimensional measure of empathy, and the Strange Stories test to 21 adults with AS and 21 matched controls. Our data show that while the AS group scored lower on the measures of cognitive empathy and theory of mind, they were no different from controls on one affective empathy scale of the IRI (empathic concern), and scored higher than controls on the other (personal distress). Therefore, we propose that the issue of empathy in AS should be revisited."


Yes! Yes! Somebody likes us!

Unlike the EQ, which was created to demonstrate that autistic people are lower in empathy, the IRI was created to measure empathy in anybody. Autism wasn't even considered back in the day. Neither were any other specific demographic group - the IRI is a generic measure of empathy, divided into four distinct scales, measuring fantasy empathy, perspective taking, empathic concern, and personal distress. I had a thread on here earlier about the IRI (plus my webpage for the test), and while our scores were below the means posted with the original scale, they were still more or less in the middle. I couldn't do a statistical test because I didn't have a control group. These people had a control group.

Quote:
"The primary goal of this paper was to begin to describe the nature of both cognitive and affective empathy among individuals with AS, a group that, despite little direct empirical support, has been labeled as lacking in empathy."


In other words, people assume we are low in empathy, but they don't usually bother to check. Very scientific, yah!

The researchers found that their adult AS subjects scored lower on perspective taking and a ToM test (Happé's Strange Stories, which looks like more advanced ToM, but I need to read up on it to be sure); they scored the same on empathic concern and even higher on personal distress. In other words, we may not know what's going on, but we care, we really do.

Quote:
"Although this finding is at variance with previous reports of deficits in empathy in individuals with AS (. . .), it is in keeping with anecdotal reports from parents and clinicians that suggest that autistic individuals can be very caring."


Aww, gee. Thank you. And this last bit is what really gets my approval: the authors get that bad theory can be used against us out there in the real world.

Quote:
"A description of individuals with AS that includes ‘‘deficits in empathy’’ as a central characteristic carries with it several moral implications and may even lead to adverse social consequences. In light of the findings presented here, we propose that the issue of empathy deficits in AS be revisited and expanded to include more multi-dimensional analyses."


What really impressed me is the tact with which the researchers made their point. Wish I knew how to be so tactful, and yet still get my point across.

I sure hope someone's listening to these guys.

***

If someone already posted on this paper I appear to have missed it. Perhaps before I joined? I think other papers have been mentioned, but I don't remember seeing this one.



great stuff Anemone. thank you for posting it up. we are not all stone cold callous automatons after all.



Last edited by millie on 27 Dec 2008, 1:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

jdbob
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24 Dec 2008, 6:01 am

Fantasy: 12
Perspective-taking: 10
Empathic Concern: 9
Personal Distress: 14



Crocodile
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24 Dec 2008, 6:59 am

Great this IRI exists! I know I have empathy, but no one believes me because I have AS.


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24 Dec 2008, 7:01 am

Is there a link to this test?


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Sora
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24 Dec 2008, 7:41 am

Crocodile wrote:
Is there a link to this test?


Yes, just see here:

Anemone wrote:
I had a thread on here earlier about the IRI (plus my webpage for the test) [...]


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24 Dec 2008, 9:28 am

Your scores: Fantasy: 12; Persective-taking: 12; Empathic Concern: 16; Personal Distress: 8



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24 Dec 2008, 9:46 am

Crocodile wrote:
Great this IRI exists! I know I have empathy, but no one believes me because I have AS.


Other people with empathy can tell if you're the real deal. Empathy can't be faked.



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24 Dec 2008, 10:53 am

Danielismyname wrote:
What's "affective empathy"?

Affect is a fancy scientific term for emotion, so affective empathy is emotional empathy, as opposed to perspective taking (intellectual empathy). It's the "I'm sad, when you're sad" stuff.

anna-banana wrote:
I agree. I don't understand what's the deal with it, what's so wrong about lacking in empathy?

In theory, nothing is wrong with being low in empathy. But people tend to be less sympathetic to people they think are unempathic. Which means they're more prejudiced. Which means when you need them to be nice to you, there are less likely to, even when it's the fair thing to do. If they think you're a cold hearted snake, they don't treat you like you're human.

Fo-Rum wrote:
Parents instantly love their unborn child

Not always, unfortunately.

Sorry about having the links buried in the post. I should have put them somewhere more obvious.

Glad people like the paper. I'm wondering if I should email the senior author with a link to these threads. How do people feel about that?



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24 Dec 2008, 11:44 am

As far as love and empathy...

I don't have to understand how my husband thinks and feels to love him. Too separate things. A degree of understanding is helpful in a working relationship. (Not complete understanding, but, some.) But it's not required to feel love.



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24 Dec 2008, 12:02 pm

What is required to feel love?



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24 Dec 2008, 12:14 pm

slowmutant wrote:
What is required to feel love?


I'll tell you what has made me change in this area. My family has never made me feel love that I know of, or perhaps that I recognize. I used to feel very cold and shut down in this area. I had acquired a pet that I still have, a small dog (50% pomeranian/50% chihuahua). About when she was 3 or 4, she had gotten pregnant.. I was getting up one day and she got up to follow me, but she got in an unusual position (we were getting up from a bed), and my knee hit her in the back of her head and sent her down (in shock). I had thought I had broken her neck, and that she was going to suffocate and die right there. Her body was limp she wasn't breathing, and it scared me. I had thought at that time of her unborn puppies and how they would never come now. It was at that time I had first realized a true connection with another thing on this planet, and made me realize that I do in fact feel love for another being.

I don't feel this emotion very often, and I forget it's there, and often feel very cold still towards my dog even (or feel she is cold towards me), but I know it's there. I have learned that it is. I still feel nothing towards my family and friends, however. However, I had met a woman, and about after 6 months of knowing this woman, I was certain I had loved her (it didn't work out for those curious). From then on, I have experienced an empathy I've never known. I was sort of "turned on", like a switch. I'm still very cold feeling towards my family, and sometimes my dog, but I'm learning to be better with such.



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27 Dec 2008, 1:44 pm

slowmutant wrote:
What is required to feel love?


Interesting question, and hard to answer.

It's easy to see things that aren't required to feel love.

What what's required would be what's always there as part of the experience. And, as something that's always there, it doesn't come to notice.

I will say, one can love without it being a feeling. I specified feeling love because that seemed to be what we've really been talking about.

Having love, and being able to feel, I would guess would be required, and probably only requirements, for feeling love. Which perhaps puts the question back a step... what's required to love. Not really a question for this thread. Way to big a topic to be a side topic in a thread about empathy. But, as far as empathy, what I said before applies... I don't have to understand how my husband thinks and feels to love him.

Perhaps to love another human, I suppose, and not just our idea of them, we have to understand their humanness, as well as understanding that they are different from us. But we don't have to have empathy for what's different. At least, that's true for me.