How do Aspergeans get misdiagnosed with Schizophrenia?

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This question 'do you hear voices' might seem a cliche now, but for many years it was considered a legitimate diagnostic question!

logic dictates there will still be poorly trained doctors who would use this approach - and be ignorant of the literal response he/she is likely to get from an AS -increasing the chances of misdiagnosis.

I am curious as to how someone with SPD would respond to the Sally Anne Test? does their perception of individual mind states allow them to respond as an NT would respond?

If so, then it could be used as a clear indicator if simular symptoms were making a definitive diagnosis difficult.

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Last edited by Vimse on 08 Jan 2009, 5:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

Anxiety and Depression are not uncommon in adults with ASDs too, some variants of the former can mimic some symptoms of schizophrenia but only to a small extent- particulary PTSD - which I have had and which caused me to be 'hyper vigilant' - I always felt that something invisible was out to get me. GAD often causes irritional worries, and in some cases I can see why that could be mistaken for dellusions.


http://www.howtodothings.com/health-fit ... depression

http://ptsd.about.com/od/relatedconditi ... chosis.htm

Perhaps seeing a patient with schizophrenia and depression/anxiety could also confuse them.

I had a very good diagnostics team working with me and they were very careful to screen through possible schizophrenic behavior while attempting to diagnose an autism spectrum disorder. So I was never diagnosed with schizophrenia, but I did suspect it of myself by about 12-13 years old and other people who watch videos of schizophrenics in psychology class have often commented how similar my behavior seems. My constant stimming of hand biting and hair twirling is consistant with how a schizophrenic would appear. I also seem to have a disjointed thought pattern at times, because I don't vocalize my train of thought and it moves too quickly for people to realize that it was all a proper progression.

Oddly enough, I could - I was in the US Air Force at the time, assigned to HQ SAC/XOXPC (Headquarters Strategic Air Command/Nuclear Deconfliction Office, Software Section), and dually assigned to the Joint Strategic Target Planning Staff (JSTPS/JPPPC). Our job was to plan out WWIII, and make sure the nukes wouldn't destroy each other on the way in (for instance, once a nuke has been armed, it can be set off by passing through the neutron flux from another nuclear explosion, which would be embarrassing at the least).

One problem with the job was that one's sleep tends to become troubled once one really begins to grasp what the term "megadeaths" (used as a measure of a weapon's target efficiency) really means...

Because some of the symptoms that can appear in both disorders look the same?

AS: little to no emotional expressiveness in the form of a monotone voice, few facial expressions and so on

Schizophrenia: flattened affect in the form of a monotone voice, a reduction of facial expressiveness

AS: peculiar language, literal interpretations, echolalia and other speech irregularities

Schizophrenia: abnormal speech

AS: appear unconnected, even otherworldly

Schizophrenia: withdraw from social interaction

Last edited by Sora on 07 Jan 2009, 10:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

uhhh I got misdiagnosed with scizophrenia when I was in a a center for evulation after a suicide attempt. The only music played there (cause the radio was highly contested) was real heavy metal and rap n r&b so I used to mouth out words to songs I liked and bam diagnosis of scizophrenia. I said to the guy so your saying because I recount songs in my head and mouth them out that makes me scizophrenic? and hes like well its very odd behavior. I said ok I gave up why is psychology the least rational "science".

Different diagnosis become popular for instance right now even with people who don't have other characteristics are being diagnosed with Asperger's for social issues. Its sad thats why I have very little faith in psychology as it is. Another story is I used to write cause there was nothing to do in the center I was then asked if I get hurt in these stories. I told them the stories aren't about me and they asked if people get hurt in my stories I said depends on the stories sometimes. I got told I wrote very violent stories that involve the main character being tortured. even though the only story I wrote there was about lost love and had no violence.

Psychology as it is right now is a psuedoscience they will just keep diagnosising you till they have a label that fits. Its sad but all areas are being incompetent these days.

Perhaps not: I think that I read in some place that, after some age, everybody (aspies, Nts, schizos...) gives the correct answer in the Sally Ann Test (and that before 4 y.o., everybody gives the wrong answer)

I have asked older aspies about the Sally Ann test and they all get the right answer because they use their logic. I think it's the young aspies that get it wrong because they are so young so their logic hasn't developed yet. It surprises me to see adult aspies to get the answer wrong but when profounded autistic adults or moderate ones get it wrong, it doesn't surprise me.

I read that autistics give the wrong answer to the test because they know the ball went to where Ann put the ball so they assume Sally would know too. Aspies fail it too at a young age but when they get older, they use their logic. Some might have to think real hard and concentrate to get the right answer. They have to ask themselves 'if I put the ball in the basket and left, would I know someone moved it if I wasn't there?' Some might fail it without even thinking.

Everyone under age four fails the test because they haven't developed that TOM yet but aspies are just slower in developing it. When kids get to the age of four, they know not everyone thinks like them and they know people aren't going to know where they put something when they hide it. If I remember correctly, they also develope at that age to think about other peoples feelings and how they would feel if they did X or said X. I missed that development there at that young age. My mother had to teach it to me when I was ten because I can remember her telling me to think before I act, think how someone would feel. By age seven, they do white lies because they don't want to hurt someone's feelings. So it be normal for young children under age six to make rude comments and be brutally honest. My shrink old me six year olds already know what is rude to say like telling someone they are fat or they are ugly. I also missed that development and had to be taught it was rude.

I read even children with Down syndrome can pass the Sally Ann test at age four.

Come on, but if you tell the psychologist that you are planning WWIII, and don't bother to explain the nature of your job with the Air Force, you are begging her to take you for a lunatic.

Here is a quote from a UK medical journal-type site I found that may help.
An experimental investigation of the phenomenology of delusional beliefs in people with Asperger syndrome

Frances Abell
Bradford Teaching Hospitals NHS Trust, UK

Dougal Julian Hare

University of Manchester, UK

There is evidence that Asperger syndrome is associated with delusional beliefs. Cognitive theories of delusions in psychosis literature propose a central role for impaired theory of mind ability in the development of delusions. The present study investigates the phenomenology of delusional ideation in Asperger syndrome. Fortysix individuals with Asperger syndrome participated and were found to have relatively high levels of delusional ideation, primarily grandiose or persecutory. Factors associated with delusional belief were anxiety, social anxiety and self-consciousness, but not theory of mind ability or autobiographical memory. The findings indicate that delusional belief is a prominent feature in Asperger syndrome, but do not support a mentalization based account. A preliminary cognitive model of delusions in Asperger syndrome is proposed and the theoretical and clinical implications of the findings are discussed.

Key Words: anxiety • Asperger syndrome • delusions • paranoia

Severe depression and certain forms of brain injury also cause flat effect.

I think it is possible to have both schizophrenia and autsim at the same time, however properly diagnosing the two together would be very difficult.
Autism/Aspergers and schizophrenia are two very different things with similar external "symptoms".

An ASD is how your brain is wired, so sort of the type of brain you have, and then schizophrenia is a chemical imbalance in that particular brain.

Saying that someone with an ASD can't have schizophrenia is like saying someone who is dyslexic can't have schizophrenia.

Its also like saying that an aspie can't eventually get Alzheimer's because they all ready have a disorder.


They should reword what disorders are instead of all neurotypes being cluttered together as disorders
I think neurotypes should be built up into some sort of tree like,

1Mental structure

A ASD Aspergers, Autism, etc
B Dyslexia
C Neurotypical

2 Mental disease
A none
B schizophrenia
C Alzheimer's

So a "normal" person is "1C 2A"
A normal elderly person with alzheimers is "1C 2C"
A plain aspie is "1A 2A"
An elderly autistic person with alzheimers is "1A 2C"

See what I mean? I'll think more about this and post a thread.

I am not too familiar with all of the conditions out there, but thats the basic idea I am trying to get across.

I don't think anyone is really saying here that you can't have two disorders. That's not the original topic of the post which was asking can someone who really has Aspergers get diagnosed with Schizophrenia instead basically. It's entirely possible to have comorbid conditions. And I think many Aspies who do see a psychologist for very long usually end up slapped with several comorbid mental diagnoses. Myself am told I have Aspergers, ADD, PTSD, Dissociation Disorder, Mathematics Disorder (yeah I know I'm still laughing over that one), Severe Depression, Avoidant Personality disorder plus "Cognitive dysfunction due to moderate brain injury". My nephew with Aspergers also has 8 diagnoses. Basically the more you see psychs, especially different psychs, the more labels they will slap on you. It becomes absurd after awhile.

I know no one here was saying that you can't have both. I was commenting on and giving my idea on Firebird's statement "I've been diagnosed with both schizoaffective disorder and autism, so yes, they both can co-exist."

As for your many diagnoses, a few of which sound like they should not be a separate diagnosis, but a symptom or effect of a base diagnosis.

Correct me if I am wrong but I see conflictions with APD and ASD

APD:
"They are so preoccupied with monitoring themselves and others that producing fluent speech is difficult."

That just sounds like someone with aspergers and their problems with small talk for example,
an NT will make a comment about the snowy weather, the aspergers person doesn't know how to respond they think "well nice observation, I can see its snowing" but thats not a socially acceptable response, so they might not know how to respond right away hence "fluent speech is difficult" and they begin wondering why people talk like that and how come they don't think the same way so they constantly pick apart peoples thought process including their own trying to find an answer "preoccupied with monitoring themselves and others "
So... "They are so preoccupied with monitoring themselves and others that producing fluent speech is difficult." sounds like it could be a common aspergers trait and not a seperate disorder. Perhaps I am wrong though. I guess maybe the ASD is the cause, and the APD could be the effect it has?

I hate it when an NT makes an observation about something and then I'm put in a position where I either affirm what they told me or don't say anything and make an idiot out of myself. Regarding that comment about the snowy weather, I would normally respond something like "yeah, it is snowy" but I know that my answer sucked and instead should have expanded on the NT's observation by saying something such as "yeah, tomorrow it's gonna be impossible to drive with all this snow." Thing is, who cares? I rarely feel the need to talk about such trivial stuff.