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garyww
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18 Jan 2009, 1:51 pm

It would not be considered 'typical' for an aspie to need somebody to wash their hair when they were in their twenties but all that means is the diagnostic criteria is horribly lacking in any detail. Actually that entire section of the DSM is so horribly prepared as to be unbelievable.


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Zonder
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18 Jan 2009, 1:53 pm

Glider18 - Everyone is affected differently - what you describe would fall under the heading of "daily living skills" and yes, Aspies often have difficulties with organization and being able to do things that others take for granted. A recent study of gifted ASD children had them scoring around 40% for daily living skills even though their IQs were above 90%.

Edit: Salutation



Last edited by Zonder on 18 Jan 2009, 1:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

garyww
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18 Jan 2009, 1:54 pm

Also the use of so-called IQ in any discussion only muddles the questions and I personally seriously doubt if IQ has much to do with anything except perhaps for making some people feel stupid and making some people imagine that they are smart.


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glider18
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18 Jan 2009, 2:00 pm

garyww wrote:
It would not be considered 'typical' for an aspie to need somebody to wash their hair when they were in their twenties but all that means is the diagnostic criteria is horribly lacking in any detail. Actually that entire section of the DSM is so horribly prepared as to be unbelievable.


I didn't think this was typical, but as you state, the criteria is lacking. It really needs to be updated. The DSM was one of two tools used on me. The therapist/expert stated that the DSM was somewhat vague. Then he used another highly detailed criteria (but I don't know what the name of it was). I easily scored in the AS range on that one too and got the AS diagnosis. And I so agree with you Gary on the use of IQ as not being good.



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18 Jan 2009, 2:03 pm

Zonder wrote:
Glider18 - Everyone is affected differently - what you describe would fall under the heading of "daily living skills" and yes, Aspies often have difficulties with organization and being able to do things that others take for granted. A recent study of gifted ASD children had them scoring around 40% for daily living skills even though their IQs were above 90%.

Edit: Salutation


Thank you for this response. Being as diverse as we are, it does make sense to have a range of traits. Interesting is the ASD gifted study. I teach the gifted at my high school.



Zonder
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18 Jan 2009, 2:06 pm

garyww wrote:
Also the use of so-called IQ in any discussion only muddles the questions and I personally seriously doubt if IQ has much to do with anything except perhaps for making some people feel stupid and making some people imagine that they are smart.


There is a theory that the higher the IQ, the more capacity an individual can have to compensate for neurological differences. Linda Kreger Silverman in her book "Upside-Down Brilliance: The Visual-Spatial Learner" talks about this in the following quote (when she talks about learning disabilities, Autism Spectrum differences can also be included):

Silverman - Upside-Down Brilliance wrote:
Learning disabilities can be very difficult to detect in extremely bright individuals. This is because more abstract reasoning ability is available to compensate for weaknesses. When there is injury or less efficiency in the part of the brain that normally controls a function, compensation enables another part of the brain to take over the function. The more brain power, the greater the potential for compensation. This is good news and bad news. The good news is that learning disabilities can be more easily “overcome” or worked around when a person is smart enough to use other strategies to achieve desired goals. The bad news is that compensation makes it nearly impossible to diagnose the full extent of a disability. So if people can compensate for disabilities, why is it important to diagnose them? Because compensation is unstable. Sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn’t.

Compensation breaks down when you’re stressed, tired, ill, injured, anxious, or encountering new situations. When compensation works, you feel like an imposter, and when it fails, you feel incompetent. Am I smart or am I stupid? Not a great basis for building self-esteem or setting high aspirations (Silverman, 2002, pp. 169-170)


How IQ is currently measured is a defining factor in how one is diagnosed - that may eventually change, but evidently "brain capacity" or "IQ" can be the difference between lower functioning and higher functioning.

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18 Jan 2009, 2:10 pm

garyww wrote:
Also the use of so-called IQ in any discussion only muddles the questions and I personally seriously doubt if IQ has much to do with anything except perhaps for making some people feel stupid and making some people imagine that they are smart.

Seconded. My own IQ scores seem to show a higher level of intelligence than I realistically know myself to possess.


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18 Jan 2009, 2:13 pm

What is meant by delay in speech development? Because I started talking late and I have AS.



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18 Jan 2009, 2:14 pm

glider18 wrote:
Zonder wrote:
Glider18 - Everyone is affected differently - what you describe would fall under the heading of "daily living skills" and yes, Aspies often have difficulties with organization and being able to do things that others take for granted. A recent study of gifted ASD children had them scoring around 40% for daily living skills even though their IQs were above 90%.

Edit: Salutation


Thank you for this response. Being as diverse as we are, it does make sense to have a range of traits. Interesting is the ASD gifted study. I teach the gifted at my high school.


You might be interested in reading more about it - link is here: Belin-Blank Center, University of Iowa. Look for Packet of Information for Professionals. The study is fascinating to me because it appears to be the first study of children who are categorized as gifted but also have Autism, Asperger's, or PDD-NOS.

Z



Last edited by Zonder on 18 Jan 2009, 2:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

garyww
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18 Jan 2009, 2:16 pm

The problem is that IQ test do not actually measure 'intelligence' as such but merely ones potential 'ability' so in effect they should be called Ability Test. Even then they measure ability against preconceived and socially established 'functions' or 'tasks' so those who thing outside of these norms will appear to be either an idiot or a savant depending upon the extremes.


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glider18
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18 Jan 2009, 2:19 pm

I took one of those online IQ tests along with my wife. She took hers a few days before I took it. I, the Aspie, scored a 129. My wife, who is a NT, scored lower. But then I realized that there was a time limit. I took over an hour to take the test when it was supposed to be like a half hour or so.

But then, just how accurate are those tests? I guessed at some of the questions because I couldn't figure them out. I probably got some of the answers right that I guessed at. That isn't accurate. A person could guess their way to a good score. And, there were some questions on the test that I tried really hard to get right, while another day I may have said I am not going to work out that question---I don't care if I get it right or not. Then there is the question of the online IQ test being a valid test to begin with.



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18 Jan 2009, 2:20 pm

Besides the differences found in performance/verbal IQ that have already been stated, another difference between AS and HFA that is sometimes found in studies is higher amounts of clumsiness in AS than in HFA. After all, Hans Asperger himself noted the seemingly ubiquitous quality of clumsiness in Aspies.
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18 Jan 2009, 2:28 pm

DeLoreanDude wrote:
What is meant by delay in speech development? Because I started talking late and I have AS.


To know what delayed is, you must know how a normal speech development is like. Most children start to say single words at the age of 1. But it's just as normal if they say their first words at 15 or even 20 months. Every toddler's a bit different. Some 2-year-olds say sentences like 'i want too' or 'i won't' or 'give ball' and some only say 'mommy' 'ball' and so on.

Children who have AS must start to say single words at the age of 2 like non-autistic children do.

If a child does not say single words at the age of 2, their speech is considered to be 'delayed'.

Children with AS are also supposed to use communicative phrases at age 3. Not sure what's meant by that though.


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Zonder
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18 Jan 2009, 2:29 pm

garyww wrote:
The problem is that IQ test do not actually measure 'intelligence' as such but merely ones potential 'ability' so in effect they should be called Ability Test. Even then they measure ability against preconceived and socially established 'functions' or 'tasks' so those who thing outside of these norms will appear to be either an idiot or a savant depending upon the extremes.


I didn't do well in grade school, middle school, high school, and most of college. Everyone thought I was pretty average. When I was 40, because I knew something was off, I had myself tested for learning disabilities, and my non-verbal IQ tested in the gifted range. Who knew?

I agree that IQ and standardized tests often miss abilities - I am a prime example of that. But tests can be a useful tool in helping people understand themselves. The difficulty is that some people will do poorly on pretty much any test that's put in front of them, even if they are brilliant in some areas. Of course it's not helpful if IQ tests are solely relied on for either diagnosis or self-worth. In what I read it seems that there is a growing recognition that abilities haven't been adequately measured in the past, and more educators are seeking out ways to recognize more than just traditional "IQ."



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18 Jan 2009, 2:30 pm

Sora wrote:
DeLoreanDude wrote:
What is meant by delay in speech development? Because I started talking late and I have AS.


To know what delayed is, you must know how a normal speech development is like. Most children start to say single words at the age of 1. But it's just as normal if they say their first words at 15 or even 20 months. Every toddler's a bit different. Some 2-year-olds say sentences like 'i want too' or 'i won't' or 'give ball' and some only say 'mommy' 'ball' and so on.

Children who have AS must start to say single words at the age of 2 like non-autistic children do.

If a child does not say single words at the age of 2, their speech is considered to be 'delayed'.

Children with AS are also supposed to use communicative phrases at age 3. Not sure what's meant by that though.


According to my mum, I started talking late and they where worried, I think I started talking at the age of 2 but I'm not certain that that is the exact age.



garyww
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18 Jan 2009, 2:31 pm

I strongly suspect however that many ballet dancers may be HFA so I don't put a lot of belief in that part of the 'observations' poor fine motor control is also one of his 'observations' that I think is bunk if you look at the number of us who are capable of doing incredibly detailed work.


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