NTs' logic - YES, there is such a thing

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Perhaps they don't "teach" - but I believe that the information these books contain is helpful in sorting out those social maneuvers. You won't know unless you take a look at them.

They don't even mention the pecking order and the core, basic fact that the whole social reality is dominated by the who-needs-who-more hierarchy of power.

There are some pretty damn good books out there not on AS which do help though. But firstly you have to recognise your problems before you can attempt to solve them.

Really the main thing you need is books on conversational skills (and also dating books - they are basically aimed at people who fail socially). I would say Leil Lowndes is pretty good, so is the game by Neil Strauss. You obviously have to be sensible in terms of which bits of advice you take.

Well, the book by Stanford is only concerned with AS/NT person-to-person & how they can collaborate (instead of fighting each other's tendancies.) It doesn't concern itself with people outside their immediate relationship.

I'll have to take your word for it on the Grandin book - I'm only in the first chapter & it seems as though she DOES take into consideration things like NT pecking order, but maybe I'm misunderstanding her message.

I know this if off topic, but I think that is oversimplifying. There's a lot of variation in the spectrum, not just in degree. It is possible to have Asperger's and be able to understand non-verbals without having to devote a lot of energy to learning them.

Greentea, I think the word you seek is not "logic" because "logic" applies to a particular discipline of making arguments and knowing the rules of proofs.

I think the word that applies to your rational analysis of NT behavior, systemizing and inferring its principles and rules, is "logos". You are not learning their "logic" so much as you are like a rational social behavior philosopher who is observing NT behavior and working out fundamental laws and principles. That kind of philosopher/scientist approach is consistent with "logos", establishing a field of objective knowledge.

FYI, if you want a good set of observations/rules on which to base analysis of NT "pecking order" or "influence" behaviors, there's a classic in Robert Greene's "48 Rules of Power" that you might find helpful. It's basically a list with a lot what it claims are rules for how people establish influence and use it. It's become a modern classic.

If data for your pecking rules analysis is what you're looking for, that might help.

WOW! Thanks for sharing that link, ephemerella ! !! ! I had to invent the wheel by myself, wish I'd seen that text before. There's much, much more than that in NT social dynamics, but that's a big piece of it. Even if I wouldn't waste my life applying those rules, they're a golden way to understand what NTs are doing in interaction with me and others. And from my own, experience, all those rules are true.

Greentea, I think that you are gifted in your special interest. What you are doing is working out for yourself a whole field of philosophy that is social psychology, from a systematic AS perspective (i.e. analytically and systematically). There is probably a branch of philosophy that can also provide some supporting material for what you are doing, kind of like the philosophy of politics, but more scientific, like behavior modeling.

Your threads are really interesting... will keep reading. Thanks!

Thanks zeichner for the books you recommend! I´ll have to check them out...(probably next month, as I´ve already shot my limit on my credit card for this month). Funny, at the moment I´m really interested in studying AS and how to interact in the NT world; well, study it rather than do it! (I think I really need the book about relationships). Hmmm, but maybe this studying is actually taking me somewhere....

Perhaps there should be a 'Neurotypical' and a 'Neuroatypical' tag. Yes, technically the definition of AS would be neuroatypical - but in this concept, 'Neurotypical' would be the 'classic NT', so to speak, and 'Neuroatypical' would refer to those who are neurotypical in that they don't actually have AS/autism, but could hardly be called neurotypical in many other senses of the word.



Greentea, yes. If you point out to an NT person something that they do and ask them to explain to you why they do it, you're presenting them with a very tough task, because they're not consciously aware why they do it (in fact, in some cases, they may not even be consciously aware they are doing it). They haven't undergone a logical thought process of 'I need to do or say X here, so that Y will happen' - their intuition is moving a hundred times faster than that, and they just know what's the right thing to do.

I agree that Aspies can 'learn' social skills to a degree, but I still don't believe it's ever possible for them to be quite as good as an NT, simply because of the different way the skills will be applied. We will always be having to plan them out logically to some extent. I think it's a little like the way that if you can't draw, you can certainly go to art classes and learn techniques, and with practice, greatly improve. But will you ever be quite as good as someone who is naturally a gifted artist?

I was quite impressed with the relationship book. It's written by an NT woman who is married to an AS man. But there's no whining about how hard it is for NT to deal with AS. She just focuses on how to see the relationship in the context of AS - which I found to be rather enlightening. Like looking through someone else's eyes. It gave me lots of clues about how to better interact with the NT people in my life.

ephemerella, it's not a special interest, it's a tool for survival. I'd much rather devote all that time and energy to improving my skill at my special interests: Travel, Photography and Writing and becoming a travel guidebook and romance writer. Instead, I'm all the time busy trying to discover what will make me have company for lunch as the other 1000 employees all have at my work.

Well, you are very disciplined and systematic at solving the problems that you have to solve to live a better life!

I'll keep reading your interesting threads. ::

ephemerella, thanks for that link. It's now a favorite. I hope to get some time to read them all.

Yeah, I had a look at that link too. Kind of depressing though! But I guess it´s good for me to have an idea what other people are about.

To Greentea:

How about this? Let’s just forget about how people interact and think about their external world. Would you agree that anyone who contradicts themselves to themselves is illogical and would this not apply to everyone?