Do others post threads undermining you?

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LOL.

It all depends on what's being discussed. I think some things require more sensitivity depending on the specifics. I can think of an example in this thread. A poster posted how she felt about a situation she encountered similar to what you are talking about in your topic and yet people are discounting her feelings using excuses for not giving her the support she is seeking by posting on this thread. It might seem one way to us but to the person posting it's very real and upsetting even though when we read it some of us might think it's not very important and there are so many things that are far worst...just making up excuse after excuse not to offer an ear and be supportive. But what does it really say? It's very conditional.
Btw your response to the poster was very nice and supportive.

OK. Based on what I've seen so far, I think that there are 3 basic types of cross-talk insults/offense problems:

Type I personal insult/offense: Someone Takes Offense at Honest Feedback and Frank Opinions of Others

This might be what garyww is running into, because he's outspoken and direct, and gives simple, honest opinions that in my mind are really valuable feedback and advice, but that might be offensive to more sensitive people. This also happens with the respondent above, who said that when he complained about his problem with his mother trying to take away his things to control his decisions about how to deal with his disability, others obliquely posted things about a spoiled brat. In my experience here, a lot of people on WP weigh in with their first knee-jerk response to a poster's problem, without really understanding their problem. Personally, I think it's dysfunctional and disrespectful for a mother to take a kid's possessions in order to try to manipulate or control the kid -- it's a violation of the kid's boundaries and sense of security. But someone else called him spoiled (out of jealousy for him having all the cool stuff?).

So in a Type I personal insult/offense taken on a message board, you have the unintended insult, when someone is offended by a frank and honest opinion that they think is insensitive, and you also have truly insensitive people who jump in and usually due to some bias or prejudice, belittles someone else's problem or issue.

What garyww does is give honest and frank feedback, which I think is educational and really valuable. And then there is the belittling of others who jump in with insensitive and/or biased remarks, which isn't so valuable. In my opinion, part of the interesting thing you have to do on a message board is to sift through the pile of comments and tell the valuable stuff from the hurtful stuff... that's your job.

For all Type I personal insult/offenses, if you can't make good use of the comment, the proper response is just to ignore them. You can be way too sensitive to snide remarks of others on message boards, and it isn't realistic to expect other people to respect your feelings so much they don't give honest opinions or frank feedback. Just ignore the snarking of jealous or prejudiced people.

Type II personal insult/offense: Someone Has a personal grudge against someone else and tries to pretend to debate them when they are actually personally attacking

This is evil and dysfunctional, and the bully should be fought back against. This is the snide poster who stalks your threads and posts snickering cut-downs about you and your ideas, without ever coming out directly to declare "I don't like you and am trying to harass you."

This is a bullying issue and most of us are familiar with these people. Cope with it according to your defensive strategies for dealing with bullying NTs.

Type III personal insult/offense: Someone is afraid of/uncomprehending/against your issue or stand and takes to attacking you personally or undermining you personally

This is the famous ad-hominem attack. This is an age-old strategy to shut people up who shake up the views that you feel comfortable with and that you want to see the group stay with. From the days when the Catholic Church burned heretics at the stake to last year when the media fans of Barack Obama demonized and attacked anyone who polled well against him during the election year, the ad hominem attack is an effective way to beat an opponent that you fear you can't win against fairly. It's also a great way to chill speech and make people afraid to say things that will piss off the group -- because they fear getting singled out and attacked, too.

In this case, you can't really protect your ideas because they are attacking you as evil for having them, so there is no effective defense against this. Challenging these self-appointed thought police requires gathering up support and leading a movement against their domination, if they are too influential to ignore.

In conclusion, my advice is to get as much of value as you can out of the frank opinions and criticisms of others that is meaningful. Ignore what you think is unhelpful digging and picking. Fight for points and agendas that you think are worth standing up for. I.e. the message board is like real life.

Well, you know, Ephemerella, if I have to go to all that trouble when reading, why can't they go to all that trouble by thinking how it will come across before it's posted? Why is it up to me to stoically pick through insults and not up to them to show some sensitivity and think a bit before they post insults? Many people here have problems IRL and might be a bit more sensitive to the insults and have the impression that this site will be more sensitive. It's somewhat implied and I do not think I am out of bounds suggesting this.

It's happened to me, especially right after California's Proposition 8 passed and people found out that I'd voted for it. I guess some folks just can't take defeat graciously.

No, you are exactly right. This is a special issue on an AS site, something my post above ignored.

It helps me a lot when someone points out to me that I've been insensitive, socially clueless or otherwise unempathetic. But the thing is that I don't always know in advance when I'm being insensitive or unempathetic. That same lack of empathy and insight I have a problem with also causes AS people to be more sensitive to insult than they need be, sometimes to the point of paranoia. Hypersensitivity combined with lack of social insight can cause people to become very anxious about what is being said about them. The insensitivity and lack of empathy of some AS on this site (like myself), can cause problems, too.

You are right, but also this problem of insults/offense isn't going to be easily solved on an AS discussion site, and on that side of the equation, it is perfectly okay, and helpful, to point out to an AS when they have been insensitive. But on the other side of the equation, people on the receiving end should make an effort to learn how to sift through apparent insults for meaningful advice and ignore the rest.

I have a problem like that IRL with my in-laws right now... maybe I should post a thread asking for advice.

Have you ever, and this is just an idea more so than any suggestion, considered going back to school online?

I see more of the type III going on and never really the first two. I take it as a compliment now that when I debate so well that someone's best comeback is against me personally. That's when I usually re-state what I last said, add a little, and then say, and you say blah blah blah is that the best you can come up with? Sometimes I just flat out tell them that they are attacking me just because they can't come up with an argument probably because I'm right. And because I do cave in on some of my arguments when out debated, I think it's usually obvious that I'm not a complete tyrant so I usually also remind people it's okay for them to change their minds or just be unsure for a while. As I'm the perfect example of someone who can do that.

I do find that sometimes people insult my argument, and I sometimes take that to mean me. I insult arguments regularly, and I probably do get to a point where I insult the person I am arguing with. Trust me, though, it's usually a much nicer way than what first crosses my mind when I read their argument. You know like when I was debating with a woman about Pro Life (me) and Pro Choice (her), at some point she made a comment that men can work unskilled labor at 10 bucks an hour, and the only thing unskilled women could do for that much is prostitution. Considering most Pro Choice women claim to advocate women's rights, I immediately thought that this lady needed to put the crack pipe down. But instead, I just explained a list of jobs women can do for that kind of money to include military, trade apprenticeships, telemarketing, even bartending. Because we were also talking about rape being high in the military, she said well that wouldn't be an option because of the rape, and I came back with I'm sure the rape levels are lower in the military than in prostitution. But in many parts of that argument, I had to keep telling myself this women is not stupid as she has come up with many good arguments, but she just said something stupid probably only because she's in debate mode like myself. I even caught myself debating something I kinda agreed with. But I'm sure though no matter what I said in cases I perceived as complete stupidity, it came out kinda condenscending. It had to. But I did try really hard not to be insulting in the process. A few times, I even deleted things I said before I posted because it might come across wrong. Even then, I'm sure it came out wrong on many occassions, but we got a long well at the end of the debate, and I think it was only because we still chit-chatted and treated each other like friends on the forum in the process of the debate. Like I'd say something rude, and then in the next paragraph, I say something nice about her. This was vice versa with her and me. So when I did read something I took personally from her, it didn't last long when I read something she did say nice about me.

I remember one that did kinda insult me was when someone told me my post was really long. I'm sitting here thinking an Aspergers person should be the last one to lecture me on length of posts. But then I read more posts by that person, I think that's just how that person is. The insult factor left quickly after that. But he was right, I do write some long posts. And I do repeat myself, and I do talk in circles. But I'm glad he made that comment and I was insulted by it because if I weren't insulted, I wouldn't of thought about it anymore than the first read. But because I thought about it, I realized how often I repeat myself. I knew I talk in circles when I'm not sure what point I'm trying to make, but my intuition says I'm on the right path (it's never been wrong in that case). Either way, because I noticed for the first time how much I repeat myself, then I started asking why I do that, and now I know. Nobody in my life has ever listened to me, and that's why. I mean that with my parents, my siblings, my family, friends, and even husband. I didn't realize they don't listen to me, and I think it's messed up that it became a normal part of my life that I didn't realize it.

Type I, I see that happen to other people, but not myself. Probably because I wouldn't notice it if it were to happen to me, or I just ignored it so much that I don't remember it ever happened. A lot of those seem to be quick posts that someone just popped in and out and spent all of 30 seconds to read and type a response. I notice a lot of people look at the questions in this forum like it's a myspace survey. They just answer it and move on without any real conversation. That's usually fine when I ask a question in a thread because that's what I want, but I think other people ask a question wanting more than just people's answer, like it's a conversation ice breaker to them. I think it's the my space surveyers who tend to make the Type I insults more often because they are answering like it's a myspace survey rather than realizing other people, unlike myspace, are actually reading their answers.

Now I've never seen Type II. Now I kinda stalk people, but I don't. Like I have certain people I remember and associate as friendlies. Like epheremella. So when I see that she made a post, I make it a point to read it only because she wrote it. So it's more like a fan club type thing than stalking. garyww is one I like to read because he's so to the point. I don't always respond, but I do make a larger effort to read em only because I know they are going to be good posts. And, I'm less apt to argue with my friendlies. If I disagree with what they say (which doesn't really ever happen), I probably wouldn't start a debate with them as much as I would with someone I didn't recognize. But if I were to start a debate with them, it wouldn't be a personal thing. It would just be because I really felt so strong about my message that I needed to speak it. I guess it's almost like a favoritism, but it really is just that certain names gained my respect whereas other names have yet to earn it, and it's also that certain names are more favorable to my personality type, like we get along. I sometimes swear Ephemerella might be my clone. That's why she's my number one friendly. Which is also why I read this thread. But I don't know how many times I read something, and then I think someone needs to say this, then I read at other posts, and oh, Ephemerella already said it for me. It's just too weird. I wish I knew someone like that face to face growing up.

But I think a major factor in the insults is the internet. When I was in high school, my cousin in CO and I in WV would get online and chat in yahoo together because it was cheaper than a phone call (back before vonage). But we'd get bored quickly just chatting us two, so we'd both hit certain chat rooms. We targeted rooms where we thought we could get into a good argument or debate. He being Aspie diagnosed ADHD (IMHO), he would really get into it. The things he said online he would never say to someone to their face. Same with me. We were just two stupid kids going chat room hopping trying to cause a chatroom commotion. The others acted like they were annoyed by it, but their conversations were so dry that they had to enjoy the moment. I see it when I play some online games with a chat, and I hate it then because we are all doing something, but I have to admit, sometimes, I kinda enjoy the teen that comes in and starts stuff. I don't like the ones that just flat out say insults or things that make no sense (ones like my cousin), but the ones that just start arguing with people in a playful, witty manner (ones that remind me of me when I was a kid), they are funny. People's reactions are even funnier sometimes.

Either way, when people get online, they act nothing like they would in real life. Even me, I think I'm good at debates online, but in conversation, I stink. I finally told my sister and friends when we start arguing, take it to the email. That's what we do because it's the only way I can do it. This is the place where you can be whoever you feel like being that day. If you want to be a bitter old witch, then so be it. If you want to be the sweet old saint, go for it. But also, with that, some people just like a good debate and that's all they are looking for on here. And in forums, you tend to expect things to get controversial once in a while. I also think people who hit up debate topics more often than not are more apt to debate in a topic that isn't intended to debate. I also think some people are just freaking bored and addicted to drama, so they often create it (unintentionally) out of sheer addiction for it. I'm addicted to drama, but other people's drama. I like to solve problems, so I'm more addicted to that, and the only way I find freebies are in other people's drama. Not that their life is a game, no far from it. It used to be that way with me when I was young, but now I know better.

siiigh, the thing is, Ephemerella, I know you can be sensitive. You were very caring and understanding in your response to Gina. I don't think it's asking too much.
From what I have seen, legitimate users of this site can be sensitive in their WP posts when they choose to be...

Last edited by ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo on 13 Mar 2009, 1:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

i don't think i have ever noticed whether someone has posted a thread on me or not.

i know i have weighed in with blunt and honest views about things and i am told i can be rough at times and at other times very kind.

I know there are people on WP who have made it clear they do not like me and i do not like them and a bit of crap has been thrown both ways. I think one woman seemed to think she could "frighten" me away with the garbage she directed at me. suffice to say, it did not work. but she probably has ODD rather than AS anyway.

A few times i have received a profuse apology in my pm inbox because certain individuals have maintained they were cruel to me in a thread and hated what i said and made it clear they had done so. I chuckle...because i never noticed.

i probably take in about ten percent of information before me, unless i am absorbed in it and passionate about it, and those friends i have made here on WP who i keep in contact with, know i can have great difficulty with comprehension and absorption of stuff if it is not special interests related. That means i usually write more than i read.

WP functions as a kind of sewerage system for me...

and as my AS psych noted - i have a LOT of excess energy - mental and physical - to offload....

Lead me to the plumbing...


and WP - it's just a daggy old forum...one that keeps me connected with my type of people.

Last edited by millie on 13 Mar 2009, 1:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

That's funny. You use their ad hominem attack on you as an opportunity to air more of those views they dislike. That's a good strategy against someone who is attacking you to distract people from your views!



That is like what some of my experiences were, too. But I'm not as insightful as you are. It sounds as if you have been teaching yourself some good interpersonal skills via your experiences in the discussion board.



Me too! People attacked me for rambling posts that no one bothered reading. My response to that is that if no one was reading my posts, they shouldn't bother her since they shouldn't matter.



You write long posts but they're really interesting and meaningful. And your writing is easy to read.



It's such a relief and battery-charger to come here and find smart, beautiful-minded women like you here. I hate being such an isolated case out here in my real life. I think that some of the lower-functioning AS who keep posting angry criticism of "elitist" AS have no idea how lonely it is for us out in the real world, where no one listens to you and your brilliant ideas if you don't have social skills. And how wonderful it is to come to a discussion board where you can read the ideas of others like you. Just finding others like yourself and chattering about things on your level, is a kind of "support", too!



It's also really, really easy to be unaware of how you sound in writing. When you type something out, it can come off totally different than what you intended when you hear the words in your head as you type it. Email mishaps occur with me often.

Ephemerella,
I am high functioning, in fact I am quite intelligent. I am intelligent enough to know what my life is like since I live it. I am more aware of what goes on in it than people posting on an internet forum. I am also smart enough to know when someone is justifying their rude behaviour, making excuses for it. Excuse me. I am far from being low functioning. I also do not need to keep harping on lower functioning people just to prove some enigmatic point about myself.

this is probably the nut in the kernel.

So what is your point?

Is it a point about all these negative threads griping about "elitist" AS?

Or my daring to respond to them, arguing against all the "elite AS" bashing?

At what point in my posts did I imply that you are not high functioning? (I thought you were HF, in fact).

I think you prove my point that maybe it's the lower-functioning AS who are being hypersensitive and hypervigilant, and projecting their resentments onto higher-functioning AS.

I wouldn't think of garyww, you or anyone else on this board whose posts I read today as being low-functioning. I think garyww is charming, that your posts are insightful and on the mark, and so on.

Based on the "elite AS" bashing threads that are posted, and other things that are being said, I think the low-functioning AS have an attitude against higher functioning AS and are projecting their resentments against NTs onto higher functioning AS, along with unrealistic demands that the higher-functioning AS be more socially insightful, empathetic, and other demands that require that the higher-functioning AS have a theory of mind that they lack.

Your paranoia and hypersensitivity doesn't make me feel guilty. If you want to surround yourself with socially insightful, empathetic, anticipating-your-sensitivities people, I think you want WP to only have people just like yourself in it and that you want the higher functioning AS to leave. I don't have much theory of mind, and it takes quite a lot for me to develop social insights for particular types of people.

Before these threads today, I had no idea garyww considered himself lower functioning, or that you weren't high functioning/high I.Q. I think you're more fixated on these classifications than anyone else. And finding ways to take offense where none is intended. I enjoyed your posts and I like garyww's posts a lot. And the posts of most others who claim to be low-functioning.

What I dislike are the thought police who try to silence those they don't understand and who make them uncomfortable. And I also have a bad feeling about all these "elite AS" bashing threads going on here.

I have tried to reason with her in the past, but she just gets angry and says I don't know how to do as I'm told. That's because if I'm told to do things that are stupid and illogical, I won't just go along with it like a sheep.

This has all started again cos I didn't go to school this morning. She doesn't understand that I don't actually make the conscious decision not to go to school, some days I physically can't drag myself out of bed. It's not like I enjoy not going, I just wanna be normal, but I can't.

pfffft, I don't think it should be a place for one kind of person. I used to complain about NTs because I saw people doing it in their posts then I realized it didn't make much sense since everyone has good days and bad and we are all the same species, like it or not.
But you have to remember...everyone is capable of basic good manners and a certain degree of politeness. Doesn't matter if they are lower functioning or higher, NT, whatever. I honestly don't know where you are getting the idea that LFAs are angry and critical. I haven't noticed that.
Also, it's mean to compare us to each other and then say some of us are like we are because we are lazy scum. I know you aren't the one who said that.