AS Connected to Low Cortisol Levels

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http://www.fi.edu/learn/brain/stress.html

Not vouching for all accuracy, but it seems to cover a wide gamut of information - please look up further information as well. I will try to contribute more this evening.


M.

hmm. maybe i'm looking at this the wrong way, but--well. i keep coming up with paradoxes (assuming that AS cortisol levels are overall low.)

high cortisol levels would explain why short term memory seems to be such an issue (difficulties in "laying down new memories.") also have noticed--just anecdotally and from a previous thread--that many seem to have trouble "accessing already existing memories." (i've noticed this in myself as well--on both counts.)

and still---our cortisol levels tend to measure low, not high.

and then there's that long term memory that "just won't quit." hmm. but then that's often seen in those with Alzheimer's as well... so i'm guessing somehow this might be related to hippocampus "wear and tear" also(?) (also seems paradoxical to me: that strong long term and weak short term could have the same origins. but anyway...)

if long-term memory strength is associated also with hippocampus damage, this would also seem to indicate high levels of cortisol.

so again: i'm thinking of what you said about balance and regulation.

i'm wondering now if cortisol levels tend to be measured when we're at rest mainly(?) suppose when we're not--when anxiety or over-stimulation is present--the levels soar well above what would be expected?

will look into this myself also--if there have been any studies which have measured levels at both points. (thanks for the above info, BTW.) in the mean time, felt a need to throw that out there.

*****

-Waking- cortisol levels are low - the studies do not report on production while awake, or before sleep. All is says is that in the mornings, those on the spectrum do not get the doubling of cortisol that those not affected generally experience. Please read more carefully to avoid inferring more than is being said in the articles.

It would not surprise me that the stress of interaction pushed cortisol levels higher and higher through the day, which would in turn cause the sleep disturbances many report.


M.

well... "levels in the body do tend to decrease throughout the day though, just as they do in those without the syndrome."

http://resources.atcrmhmr.com/poc/view_ ... 7990&cn=37

(realize that's the same one, but just to save a moment or two.)


now i'm really confused...back to obsessing.

From what is considered a normal level, and without cause for it to go back up - example, stress. Those on the spectrum often experience stress, meltdowns, anxiety, etc - all of which will cause cortisol to be secreted unless there is another underlying problem. On the basis of stress alone, I would guess that my cortisol increases during the midday compared to the morning, which would in turn explain why it takes longer to 'come down' at night.


M.

it makes sense to me too that this would be so. but according to the above: we don't get the usual jump of cortisol levels in the a.m., as those off the spectrum do. in addition, our levels actually decrease as the day goes on (as is true for NT's)--despite the lack of the initial surge.

so it just keeps going down.

all of this is so paradoxical to me. that's one of the reasons i'm obsessing about it. i can't seem to make things "click."

i'm doing a little reading on the autonomic nervous system in general. (at this point, it'll take a while to untangle the knots in my head--lot spinning around in there.) it seems to me that those on the spectrum have a strange mix of symptoms connected with both high and low cortisol levels at once---even though they generally measure as low.

so many things seem to be related to cortisol levels---including foot pronation. (i've tended to wonder why my feet are splayed outwards. now wondering if unusual foot pronation is something often seen on the spectrum.) possible links to arthritis. low levels even seem to prevent aging to a certain degree. (there was a thread here for a while noting that an awful lot of aspies seem to look young for their age.)

right now, it's kind of a tangle. (for one thing, i sometimes have difficulty sorting out opposites and am not sure whether arthritis, outward foot pronation, etc. are related to low or high levels of cortisol. i usually struggle for a while, and eventually it clicks.)

i'll just keep reading and "untangling" until my mind comes up with something that makes sense to it.

another thing---it seems as though the research is leading towards the use of cortisol in the treatment of some AS "tics." (the need for "rigid" schedules, etc.) something about this seems terribly wrong to me. i realize i'm a hopeless amateur. the only other physiological topic i've been fascinated by is lupus. i'm missing huge pieces---it's just not fitting together.

True, we don't have the "waking surge" - but we experience anxiety, stress, fear, discomfort, fight-or-flight responses on a different level from those not on the spectrum (in general) which would then correspond to rising levels all day. The body works to eliminate the cortisol, but the fact that we continue to produce more constantly than others means that our output (not necessarily levels) would be much, much higher over the course of the day.

Where an NT might experience this: (24 characters for 24 hours; . is sleep, < is surge, = is higher level, - is lower level)

........<===--==--=-----


....someone on the spectrum might do this:

......-=<=-==-=<=<==-=-

While I am not saying this is necessarily the case, I am trying to demonstrate how the difference in reactions and daily stressors might affect the secretions and levels.


M.

i think i see. so in general you're saying the body works harder to eliminate the cortisol so that output can remain high while measured levels remain steady and/or low?

*nod* There would be spikes of production which the body would continue to bring down, but there would be more spikes during the day and the body would be working harder to achieve equilibrium.


M.

thank you. am sure i'll look into it more--cortisol in general. (who knew it affected so many different things?) but that takes the "headspin" out of it.

pace. (peace out.)

I do not follow your reasoning. We “lay memories down” so we can recall the information in the long term. Why would something that intereferes with a process not necessary to short term memory explain problems with short term memory? [quote]

this is my thought: there is this initial difficulty in laying down memories. for instance: most Nt's seem to naturally have a feel for where their shoes are located, and which clothes match others. . for those on the spectrum, this is not necessarily the case. the facts don't make it into short term memory; thus it can't be transferred to long term memory.

i think we acquire fewer memories overall. it's just that once they are acquired, they tend to be stored more easily in long term memory. i don't think this is so much the case for NT's. for instance: you can probably name (in pretty vivid detail) some facts you learned in first grade or recall an event from very early childhood. this doesn't seem to be the case for most NT's.

this could be faulty. but that was my thought.

They don't know why. I developed it as a young adult, my pituitary just up and died on me. Or it could be the hypothalmus. Theyre not sure which and it doesn't effect treatment. Either a head injury or some inborn thing.

It's possible that many ASers run low normal, or that the ups and downs are in the wrong times. It'd explain the lack of circadian rhythms too.

“Laying down memories” so far as I know, specifically refers to the process that occurs when things currently in short term memory are treated by the brain in such a way that they can be accessed later, ie laying down memory means turning short term memories into long term memories. So something (like that is described as interfering specifically with a process needed for long term memory but not needed for short term memory at all, does not (as you suggest) explain problems with short term memory.


The article is not suggesting that there is any problem with short term memory associated with either high or low levels of this substance. It explains why long term memory is effected (by_high_levels)_and obviously in the context laying down memories is referring to long term memory. No problem whatsoever with getting memories or keeping memories in short term memory is mentioned, just a problem with converting these for the purpose of long term memory. From this you view that levels of this substance explain some issue with getting memories into short term memory. I do not understand why you would make this leap.

I suspect the reason the article info seemed paradoxical is because you are attributing described effects of long term memory that do not appear (from the article) to effect short term memory, to short term memory as well as, or instead of attributing these effects only to long term memory.

cortisol , yeah it's that horemone everyone is trying to lower.
makes your brain shrink along with everything else.
nothing good about it.
serves some short term function in a world unrelated to modern humans nowdays it's much akin to self injury by your hypothalamus or whatever mechanism releases it.
aspies are blessed to have less of it if they really do overall.

the effects of cortisol on memory seem to be indirect ones. sustained high levels of cortisol tend to damage the hippocampus, which in turn impairs (short-term) memory; it doesn't seem to have such an effect on long-term memory. ( long-term memory tends to compensate overall when short-term memory is impaired.) many people on the spectrum need to have distinct, consistent places to store things. if we leave our keys/wallets/shoes, etc. outside of the regular storage areas, it seems almost impossible to locate them. (just an example.) i think this indicates poor short term memory.

the issue i've been grappling with is that it seems to me that even though those on the spectrum tend to measure low-cortisol (esp. a.m.--we don't get the two-fold jump NT's do), we also have to tend to exist in pretty high arousal states. difficulties with anxiety, for example, are (nearly) universal. "hair-trigger" startle response is common, etc.

i'm not sure how the two can co-exist with such regularity---symptoms of high cortisol production and low.

all of this concerns me--both for personal reasons and, well--vaguely political ones. i can envision the medical establishment heading in the direction of wanting to "treat" AS with synthetic cortisols. considering how many parents are ambivalent (at best) of their children's AS, i can see this treatment becoming widespread--and potentially harmful.

my thought: if it's simply a matter of boosting cortisol levels overall, the side effects could be extremely difficult to cope with. i believe we experience both high and low cortisol activity at once. thus, some kind of balance is necessary--rather than a "boost" alone.

Makuranasoshi explained the paradox of "high and low" co-existing side by side by positing that those on the spectrum experience spikes of cortisol production during the day; as this happens, the body is working hard to eliminate cortisol, thus achieve equilibrium. if this were the case--despite the spikes--measurable levels of cortisol would remain low.

this makes sense to me--it's how i experience it. agitation, calm, agitation, etc.--as opposed to one prolonged period of one or the other. (ie.: feeling calm throughout much of the day, or experiencing chronic anxiety throughout the day. it's more of a spike, lull, spike, lull, etc.)

what i'm wondering is how to keep overall levels of cortisol low while evening out the spikes.