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kittenmeow
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04 May 2009, 10:06 pm

Who are these people falsely diagnosing someone who clearly has anti-social personality disorder with aspergers? Is apsergers morphing into anti-social personality disorder rather than mild autism?

From the link-

"A CHILLING PLAN

Abramowski told detectives he was upset with his parents because he was grounded. He said he worked out a plan where he would stab his mother while she was sleeping and then shoot his father when he came home from work that morning."


I'm noticing more people are trying to get asperger's in court to excuse themselves.



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04 May 2009, 10:20 pm

CanyonWind wrote:
The link worked for me, unfortunately. Copy and paste.

I noticed the kid's name was Abramowski, while they're at it, maybe they could say he's a violent psycho because he's a Jew.


Don't give them any ideas...


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05 May 2009, 10:24 am

ryan93 wrote:
Aspergers had as much to do with that kid being an arsonist as a cold did with hitler.


Perhaps that will be his next article, "Does Swine Flu Cause People To Act Like Hitler"

It would be just as unfounded.



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05 May 2009, 10:30 am

carzak wrote:
The reporter just relayed an opinion given by a professor of psychiatry who has studied Asperger's and criminal behavior. Why is your problem with the reporter?



My beef with the reporter is that he didn't attempt to remain neutral. He thought up the theory, that was false and slanderous, that the crime was causesd by Aspergers, and then got ONE MD to seemingly back his opinion by selective quoting.

He never offered the opinion of countless other professions that would refute his slanderous conclusions. He tried to justify his theory that Aspergers is the cause of great harm, as though it was fact.

He way overstepped his bounds.



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05 May 2009, 10:41 am

IdahoAspie wrote:
carzak wrote:
The reporter just relayed an opinion given by a professor of psychiatry who has studied Asperger's and criminal behavior. Why is your problem with the reporter?



My beef with the reporter is that he didn't attempt to remain neutral. He thought up the theory, that was false and slanderous, that the crime was causesd by Aspergers, and then got ONE MD to seemingly back his opinion by selective quoting.

He never offered the opinion of countless other professions that would refute his slanderous conclusions. He tried to justify his theory that Aspergers is the cause of great harm, as though it was fact.

He way overstepped his bounds.


Isn't Idaho the state where that eight-year-old aspie girl was arrested at her school when she had a meltdown after being isolated in a separate room during a holiday party for the rest of her class and the school simply because she wouldn't take off her beloved cow hoodie that she wore everywhere and was allowed to wear in school, because dipshit parents didn't think it was the right "atmosphere" to wear her hoodie? And the dipshit teacher and administrators had continually refused to listen to the parents and the girl's doctors as to the best ways to handle her and wouldn't implement their recommendations. What the hell is it with Idaho?


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05 May 2009, 10:42 am

westernwild wrote:

You can thank FAAAS and Autism Squeaks and similar hate groups for the perpetual promotion and perpetuation of this BS stereotype. And no offense, but southern and western states seem to be especially prone to believe this BS and to be immune to correction (I live in a western state, I know!! !)

I don't know about the west, but the southern and southwestern part of the US is crazy when it comes to black and white thinking and stereotyping, hating anyone different from the norm, making unfounded accusations and assumptions, paranoia, and violence against those who are different.
I don't know if it's redneck culture or what but it's a serious problem. My state, which is a southern state, more or less, has the highest rate of group home abuse and child abuse in the entire US. It's a clear indication there are serious SERIOUS problems where I live. People are in denial and they think abuse of the weak and helpless is perfectly fine and will get them the results they want.
One problem is people are in such denial here. In order to fix a problem you have to admit there is a problem, right? People in my state justify child abuse and abuse in general on a continual basis. In their eyes it's okay to abuse because whomever they are abusing "asks for it" so it's okay, they rationalize it, justify it, and it makes living here hell.



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05 May 2009, 12:20 pm

I sent this email to him today.

Quote:
Dear Patrick Orr:

After reading your article, "Could Boise teen's Asperger's explain arson?", I am curious, is your paper a newspaper or tabloid? I will say your research pertaining to the actual case, the information below the fold, was relevant, possibly accurate, and much more newsworthy than trying to create a correlation that does not exist between violent crimes and Asperger's Syndrome. You only provide one source on the subject, who not only has a history of testifying FOR the defense (an accused rapist) as a biased expert considering she works at the university who had the "code of silence," but also seems to provide another type of bias in her comments for trying to excuse criminal behavior with disabilities. I don't see how correlation can be proved in case studies, which is all she has to work from. Even if that were the case, correlation does not prove causation. In addition, I think her information more pertains to Criminals who are Asperger's, as opposed to linking Asperger's to criminal tendencies.

"The syndrome affects a child's ability to socialize and communicate effectively." That is very true. However, the "illegal ideas" children with Asperger's can be consumed with are no different than any illegal ideas all children CAN be consumed with. The Aspie obsessions to a total point of oblivion are usually non-threatening. It's more like when an Aspie child has a special interest in Pokemon and may not pay attention to the fact that he has to use the bathroom until he's ready to go in his pants because he was involved with playing his Pokemon video game. Or an Aspie teenager interested in WWII might stay up all night on a school night researching something interesting on the subject on the web. Very rare are those interests threatening. Most of the time, the worst thing to result from that "obsession" is listening to an Aspie monologue about a subject nobody cares that much about.

HOWEVER, I'm sure if one were to study Asperger criminals and the crimes they commit, such as Haskins, one may discover some things unique to the criminals who are Aspergers.

Here's some real quotes from other experts in the field taken directly from their reports on their studies...

"Frith (1991) also suggested that a lack of empathy underlies the aggressive behaviors that some Asperger’s patients may commit. However, she believed that those with Asperger’s syndrome are not motivated to hurt others, since doing so requires an “active theory of mind” which they 'conspicuously lack.'" and "Given recent research demonstrating a relationship between significant mental illness and violence (Monahan et al., 2001), such an association would not be surprising. Of course, the vast majority of individuals with Asperger’s syndrome (or any other mental disorder) do not commit violent crimes." from "Asperger’s Syndrome in Forensic Settings" Daniel C. Murrie, Janet I. Warren, Marianne Kristiansson, and Park E. Dietz; International Journal of Forensic Mental Health 2002, Vol. 1, No. 1, pages 59-70

"Despite the violent speech that may be present among individuals with Asperger's Disorder, violent acts have rarely been documented. Although Scragg and Shah's (1994) examination of the prevalence of Asperger's Disorder in a secure hospital led them to surmise that individuals with Asperger's Disorder were over-represented in that setting, later researchers have questioned this conclusion and instead attributed the identified prevalence rate to chance (Hall & Bernal, 1995). The few case studies that describe a violent act committed by an individual with Asperger's Disorder acknowledge that such behavior is not common among individuals with Asperger's Disorder (e.g., Kohn, Fahum, Ratzoni, & Apter, 1998)." From "Asperger's Disorder: What It Is and What It Isn't" Beth A. Glasberg, PhD; The Douglass Developmental Disabilities Center and the Rutgers Autism Program Rutgers University

"There is little evidence of any excess of crimes amongst more able people with autism, despite occasional and sometimes lurid media publicity suggesting otherwise." from "Outcome in Adult Life for more Able Individuals with Autism or Asperger Syndrome" Patricia Howlin; Autism 2000; 4; 63.

I would appreciate it if you would, in the future, cease and desist from reporting any information that may cause discrimination and hate for a small piece of the population unless you are positive, 100%, without a shadow of doubt, that your information on the subject is correct. In addition, placing opinions (especially those that are argued by almost every other specialist in their field) and twisting the terms around with use of headlines trying to make it look like fact will not only put your employer in potential law suits, but also, it destroys your credibility as a journalist. Need I remind you it is your job to report the news, not make it up.

Thank you very much and have a pleasant day.

Respectfully,

Michelle L. Grewe



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05 May 2009, 12:27 pm

I just thought of something, I wonder if Haskins knows this guy quoted her? I personally am not a fan of what I've read about her, but I might be jumping to conclusions because of the way this guy portrayed her and it created a bias early on in my mind.



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05 May 2009, 1:37 pm

Wow, it took a minute, but I also just emailed the assistant to the chair of psychiatry what have you department at the University of Virginia who promised me she would forward it (and I actually do believe she will do this as I don't think she understands what it is all about because it sounds like English is her second language) to Dr. Haskins and the Chair. So, I emailed explaining how Dr. Haskins had to have been misquoted because no professional would make such claims that lack empirical evidence. So, we'll see.

Anyway, just to add, if anyone else attempts to call anyone there, the number to the Psychiatry Department is 434-924-5457. What makes no sense to me, only the Psychiatry Office/Department in the Medical School studies Asperger's there. I made the mistake to first talk to the Chair of the Psychology Department who said he doesn't handle anything regarding Asperger's cause that's a Psychiatry thing. He also said there was medication for it, but he didn't know anything about it because he is not qualified to prescribe. What a dope!



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05 May 2009, 3:26 pm

I know at least six or seven autistics in real life, plus some who I suspect might be on the spectrum. None of use are remotely violent.


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05 May 2009, 4:16 pm

This kind of attitude portrayed by the reporter is wong, and is a real problem in this world - the press can twist things to make it more interesting for a reader, whatever it is, they know no bounds - they're shameless. And of course, many people believe the negative - and many times - trash that they're being fed.

Let this slip - don't get too worked up about it. By all means, write a complaint if you want to, but for those of us who may latch onto this and become enraged, cool yourselves. I'm sure we all feel a certain amount of disgust towards this attitude, but don't let it ruin your day.

P.S. I hope that doesn't sound patronizing - I just know how I've latched onto negative things in the past and it can be temporarily damaging to my mind set.


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06 May 2009, 11:04 am

Thank you Tantybi!

You are obviously a very intelligent woman, and very well read. Sadly, this reporter didn't seem to bright, so much of what you wrote might be over his head.

It would be great is the good Doctor refuted the context in which she was quoted. Please keep us informed!


Tantybi wrote:
I sent this email to him today.

Quote:
Dear Patrick Orr:

After reading your article, "Could Boise teen's Asperger's explain arson?", I am curious, is your paper a newspaper or tabloid? I will say your research pertaining to the actual case, the information below the fold, was relevant, possibly accurate, and much more newsworthy than trying to create a correlation that does not exist between violent crimes and Asperger's Syndrome. You only provide one source on the subject, who not only has a history of testifying FOR the defense (an accused rapist) as a biased expert considering she works at the university who had the "code of silence," but also seems to provide another type of bias in her comments for trying to excuse criminal behavior with disabilities. I don't see how correlation can be proved in case studies, which is all she has to work from. Even if that were the case, correlation does not prove causation. In addition, I think her information more pertains to Criminals who are Asperger's, as opposed to linking Asperger's to criminal tendencies.

"The syndrome affects a child's ability to socialize and communicate effectively." That is very true. However, the "illegal ideas" children with Asperger's can be consumed with are no different than any illegal ideas all children CAN be consumed with. The Aspie obsessions to a total point of oblivion are usually non-threatening. It's more like when an Aspie child has a special interest in Pokemon and may not pay attention to the fact that he has to use the bathroom until he's ready to go in his pants because he was involved with playing his Pokemon video game. Or an Aspie teenager interested in WWII might stay up all night on a school night researching something interesting on the subject on the web. Very rare are those interests threatening. Most of the time, the worst thing to result from that "obsession" is listening to an Aspie monologue about a subject nobody cares that much about.

HOWEVER, I'm sure if one were to study Asperger criminals and the crimes they commit, such as Haskins, one may discover some things unique to the criminals who are Aspergers.

Here's some real quotes from other experts in the field taken directly from their reports on their studies...

"Frith (1991) also suggested that a lack of empathy underlies the aggressive behaviors that some Asperger’s patients may commit. However, she believed that those with Asperger’s syndrome are not motivated to hurt others, since doing so requires an “active theory of mind” which they 'conspicuously lack.'" and "Given recent research demonstrating a relationship between significant mental illness and violence (Monahan et al., 2001), such an association would not be surprising. Of course, the vast majority of individuals with Asperger’s syndrome (or any other mental disorder) do not commit violent crimes." from "Asperger’s Syndrome in Forensic Settings" Daniel C. Murrie, Janet I. Warren, Marianne Kristiansson, and Park E. Dietz; International Journal of Forensic Mental Health 2002, Vol. 1, No. 1, pages 59-70

"Despite the violent speech that may be present among individuals with Asperger's Disorder, violent acts have rarely been documented. Although Scragg and Shah's (1994) examination of the prevalence of Asperger's Disorder in a secure hospital led them to surmise that individuals with Asperger's Disorder were over-represented in that setting, later researchers have questioned this conclusion and instead attributed the identified prevalence rate to chance (Hall & Bernal, 1995). The few case studies that describe a violent act committed by an individual with Asperger's Disorder acknowledge that such behavior is not common among individuals with Asperger's Disorder (e.g., Kohn, Fahum, Ratzoni, & Apter, 1998)." From "Asperger's Disorder: What It Is and What It Isn't" Beth A. Glasberg, PhD; The Douglass Developmental Disabilities Center and the Rutgers Autism Program Rutgers University

"There is little evidence of any excess of crimes amongst more able people with autism, despite occasional and sometimes lurid media publicity suggesting otherwise." from "Outcome in Adult Life for more Able Individuals with Autism or Asperger Syndrome" Patricia Howlin; Autism 2000; 4; 63.

I would appreciate it if you would, in the future, cease and desist from reporting any information that may cause discrimination and hate for a small piece of the population unless you are positive, 100%, without a shadow of doubt, that your information on the subject is correct. In addition, placing opinions (especially those that are argued by almost every other specialist in their field) and twisting the terms around with use of headlines trying to make it look like fact will not only put your employer in potential law suits, but also, it destroys your credibility as a journalist. Need I remind you it is your job to report the news, not make it up.

Thank you very much and have a pleasant day.

Respectfully,

Michelle L. Grewe



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06 May 2009, 11:08 am

I don't blame states for ignorance. I blame leaders, and members of the free press to oppress.

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
westernwild wrote:

You can thank FAAAS and Autism Squeaks and similar hate groups for the perpetual promotion and perpetuation of this BS stereotype. And no offense, but southern and western states seem to be especially prone to believe this BS and to be immune to correction (I live in a western state, I know!! !)

I don't know about the west, but the southern and southwestern part of the US is crazy when it comes to black and white thinking and stereotyping, hating anyone different from the norm, making unfounded accusations and assumptions, paranoia, and violence against those who are different.
I don't know if it's redneck culture or what but it's a serious problem. My state, which is a southern state, more or less, has the highest rate of group home abuse and child abuse in the entire US. It's a clear indication there are serious SERIOUS problems where I live. People are in denial and they think abuse of the weak and helpless is perfectly fine and will get them the results they want.
One problem is people are in such denial here. In order to fix a problem you have to admit there is a problem, right? People in my state justify child abuse and abuse in general on a continual basis. In their eyes it's okay to abuse because whomever they are abusing "asks for it" so it's okay, they rationalize it, justify it, and it makes living here hell.



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06 May 2009, 11:31 am

Done.



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06 May 2009, 11:35 am

Thank you for all the compliments.

Yeah, i plan to keep everyone updated, if anything happens. I've been doing something in the last 24 hours that I haven't really done all week... Check my email. I think I guess Ijust wish this guy would argue with me about it, but I doubt it. I'll probably be lucky if anyone reads it.

The only thing I could think of otherwise is if it were in a paper in my area, I'd submit a rebuttal to the Editor (as a letter to the Editor), and also, submit the rebuttal as a press release to all the competitors of that paper (which in my area are a lot of small monthly papers, but that's better than nothing). You could also consider letting radio stations and local tv news know too if you live in the area of that paper. Newspapers compete with any media that sells local advertising, so you'll probably be more heard if the competition speaks for you.

Also, if you turned it into a better headliner for the competition, even better. Like, if I were a reporter, I'd want to know if this kid was taking any medications. There's so much more evidence that something like SSRI's and psychostimulants will yield this crazy lets kill the parents behavior than Aspergers. I know for sure SSRI's, even in the clinical studies, a very small percentage of people taking them had violent side effects. I know the arguments could be the same on that debate with the medication as it would be with a disorder, but there's more evidence, and empirical evidence to suggest a possibility in medication more so than Aspergers. I believe there's already a larger court history with that as well (criminal and civil suits). The other question I had, where's HIPPA? I thought your diagnosis was protected by HIPPA. Why did the court release that in the first place? This is why information like that needs to be protected, because reporters are not psychologists nor psychiatrists, yet they print as if they were experts in the field. That in of itself would be a good story too.

Anyway, sorry I'm rambling. This one for whatever reason struck a little nerve. I don't know if I'm more bothered by knowing many readers of small towns (you know, the pitchfork mob type) are now believing that Aspergers people will be violent, or if it's because some psycho kid is trying to get out of trouble by using his "disorder" as an excuse. Maybe we should do a poll on this site, and say Aspies only, "DO you ever plan to kill your parents?" Then send the results to the reporter.



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06 May 2009, 12:15 pm

Tantybi,

Yes, that would be great to find out what the Dr. says about her quote.

I am thinking about writting a letter, but I get so upset. And it doesn't seem to matter, as the damage has been done. It is sitting by every checkout line at Wal-Mart that sells the Sunday paper all week long. Thousands walk by it and read it. Not knowing anything, and reading the headline, and the article, I can only imagine what a potentional hiring manager would think about someone with Aspergers is they informed them.

This guy really screwed people over.

And yes, I am confused by HIPPA too. I can see using Aspergers as an explaining for miscommunication, but not as a blank check to commit felonies.

And if you have such a poll, count me as someone who has thought about killing his parents, but wouldn't dare ever do it, I love them. :P


Tantybi wrote:
Thank you for all the compliments.

Yeah, i plan to keep everyone updated, if anything happens. I've been doing something in the last 24 hours that I haven't really done all week... Check my email. I think I guess Ijust wish this guy would argue with me about it, but I doubt it. I'll probably be lucky if anyone reads it.

The only thing I could think of otherwise is if it were in a paper in my area, I'd submit a rebuttal to the Editor (as a letter to the Editor), and also, submit the rebuttal as a press release to all the competitors of that paper (which in my area are a lot of small monthly papers, but that's better than nothing). You could also consider letting radio stations and local tv news know too if you live in the area of that paper. Newspapers compete with any media that sells local advertising, so you'll probably be more heard if the competition speaks for you.

Also, if you turned it into a better headliner for the competition, even better. Like, if I were a reporter, I'd want to know if this kid was taking any medications. There's so much more evidence that something like SSRI's and psychostimulants will yield this crazy lets kill the parents behavior than Aspergers. I know for sure SSRI's, even in the clinical studies, a very small percentage of people taking them had violent side effects. I know the arguments could be the same on that debate with the medication as it would be with a disorder, but there's more evidence, and empirical evidence to suggest a possibility in medication more so than Aspergers. I believe there's already a larger court history with that as well (criminal and civil suits). The other question I had, where's HIPPA? I thought your diagnosis was protected by HIPPA. Why did the court release that in the first place? This is why information like that needs to be protected, because reporters are not psychologists nor psychiatrists, yet they print as if they were experts in the field. That in of itself would be a good story too.

Anyway, sorry I'm rambling. This one for whatever reason struck a little nerve. I don't know if I'm more bothered by knowing many readers of small towns (you know, the pitchfork mob type) are now believing that Aspergers people will be violent, or if it's because some psycho kid is trying to get out of trouble by using his "disorder" as an excuse. Maybe we should do a poll on this site, and say Aspies only, "DO you ever plan to kill your parents?" Then send the results to the reporter.