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AspiePrincess611
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02 Apr 2020, 3:56 pm

cubedemon6073 wrote:
AspiePrincess611 wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
AspiePrincess611 wrote:
Sorry if my beliefs bother you, but I have a right to my beliefs just as you have a right to yours. You may say I am hypocritical, but I'm not going to support a political party when I agree with maybe 5 percent of their beliefs and disagree with the other 95 percent. I'd rather support the one I agree with 95 percent of the time. Liberals seem to care more about the illegals than the disabled anyway. And just to prove my point, some of the worst discrimination against me based on my disability has been perpetrated by those calling themselves liberals. And, sorry to say it, some people really are leeches. There are people who exaggerate and lie to cheat others. Others simply don't try because they are used to getting handouts. And as I work and try to find a job to support myself fully, I feel I am fully justified. Believe what you want about me or anything else, but don't try to change my mind. You will fail. You have your beliefs, I have mine. I love this site because it is supportive and is supposed to be accepting. If you can't accept people who see things differently, maybe you should stick to liberal only chat sites.


You're entitled to believe whatever you'd like to believe and support whatever you believe.

And I'm entitled to point out that what you support is hostile to your interests and that if you'd like to advance your interests you should probably shouldn't support causes hostile to those interests.

And I'm entitled to point out that you can't out-of-hand dismiss other people as leeches without the slightest consideration of their situation and an utter lack of empathy and then turn around and insist that you need accommodation and empathy. If you refuse to give consideration to other's situations before dismissing them as leeches why would anyone feel inclined to give your situation consideration?

You're arguing with Fnord that his understanding of the extent that accommodation is needed isn't going nearly far enough and that actually far more accommodation is needed. Clearly you can't care too much about that issue if you support people who would interpret things even more strictly than Fnord's understanding and make that interpretation the law of the land.

If you want a just society with empathy for those who might be disadvantaged in various ways, you can't also support a political ideology that's hostile to the notion of helping those who might require it. It's a glaring, obvious hypocrisy.

If all you want is 'i get taken care of because i'm special but everyone else can F.O.A.D.' then you don't have a serious enough perspective to bother engaging with.

Liberals are hostile to my interests when they take my hard earned money and give it to those who don't deserve. Go troll someone else. I don't care about what you or anyone else thinks.
Bye Felecia.


I see what both of you are saying.

Here is my question to both of you.

How do we suss out who really does deserve it vs who does not? How do we determine who tried and who did not? How do we tell who really is disabled and needs help from the fakers?

You're against the fakers I assume?

Funeral, you see conservatives as taking away disability and SSDI from those who really need it? I do as well.

And, therein lies the problem. Aspieprincess wishes to work but has had major difficulty and feels as though she deserves disability and earned it. Am I correct? But, those who would defend it does not share most of your other beliefs and are repugnant to you? Is that correct Aspieprincess?

Funeral, you lean on the side who is more likely to defend your interests as in disability, SSDI and other services like Voc Rehab and ticket to work right?

I see both sides.


Actually, I'm not saying I deserve disability. I'm not on disability, I'd rather work. I've never even applied. I'm capable of more. I am underemployed currently and am looking for a full time job. I'm also saying it doesn't matter, both liberals and conservatives perpetrate disability discrimination.
And yes, I cannot support liberals only because they may be (arguably) more amenable to disability rights. There are too many other things they believe that I can't swallow.
Also, I disagree that conservatives would take benefits away from those who really, truly do need them. They just want a more stringent vetting process to weed out those who are just being lazy (I know people like this).
As for how to weed out those truly in need from the lazy, I don't have an answer, and I'm not sure anyone does. No system will ever be perfect. I do believe that most everyone can do some type of work, it's just a matter of finding the right job for you.


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02 Apr 2020, 4:37 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
What I'm saying is that one of the main lines of reasoning that conservatives use to attack social safety net type programs is to suggest that the people making use of them are just lazy and malingering.
This is why preventive medicine is a main feature of company-provided medical insurance policies, and also why elective procedures are not usually covered by those same policies.
funeralxempire wrote:
Additionally that conservatives are often against mandating that workplaces have policies for accommodating those who have disabilities.
I doubt this statement, because there are enforceable laws mandating reasonable accommodations for handicapped employees.  I am not saying that what you said isn't true, but that it may not be true everywhere and all of the time.
funeralxempire wrote:
My one point was that this is a problem because it attacks both potential options that disabled people have to secure an income.
People should be hired for their abilities, not their disabilities.  By this, I mean that people with disabilities need not be hired if they lack the skills necessary for the job.
funeralxempire wrote:
My second point was that it's hypocritical for someone to insist that they should qualify but that others are definitely malingering.  This is an unfair assumption and only leads to policies harmful to the interests of everyone who suffers from some form of disability.
Well now, there are people who have tried to defraud employers by claiming disabilities that they either did not have or could not prove they had -- people who "diagnose" themselves as aspies, for example.


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02 Apr 2020, 4:55 pm

AspiePrincess611 wrote:
... I disagree that conservatives would take benefits away from those who really, truly do need them.  They just want a more stringent vetting process to weed out those who are just being lazy (I know people like this).  As for how to weed out those truly in need from the lazy, I don't have an answer, and I'm not sure anyone does.
There are many companies that reward employees for exposing "Fraud, Waste, and Abuse".  One type of fraud is filing false disability claims.  Thus, if the reward is 10% of the recoverable losses, and the recoverable losses total $100,000 (U.S.), then the whistle-blower stands to receive $10,000 for handing over a video recording of a supposedly disabled co-worker water-skiing at Lake Tahoe (to cite a recent real-world example).
AspiePrincess611 wrote:
No system will ever be perfect.  I do believe that most everyone can do some type of work, it's just a matter of finding the right job for you.
It's also a matter of being the only qualified person applying for that job.  As more people apply, the odds of any one person being selected randomly to fill that position decrease.  This is why applicants need to be more than just another warm body in the room -- they need skills, education, experience, and the right attitude.  They simply can not expect an employer to do anything more than provide a safe place to work at the local prevailing wage (with benefits, if any).


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02 Apr 2020, 5:15 pm

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02 Apr 2020, 5:29 pm

Fnord wrote:
Well now, there are people who have tried to defraud employers by claiming disabilities that they either did not have or could not prove they had -- people who "diagnose" themselves as aspies, for example.


I'm not suggesting that fraud doesn't ever occur, only that it's not common enough to use it as an excuse for gutting programs or making them nearly impossible to qualify for.

As for 'that they couldn't prove', that's often a difficult situation for those who lack resources. I was pretty certain I was autistic years before I had a diagnosis to confirm it. I obviously had it the whole time so I was dealing with all the same issues only with no explanation. Had I not spent my last $2000 on pursuing testing I still wouldn't have a diagnosis, would this mean I don't have those struggles? Obviously not. So if I claimed it, I obviously wouldn't be attempting to defraud, it was true even if I couldn't prove it at the time.

When posters wish to act like they have more insight into what someone else is dealing with than that person themselves, I'm going to call BS. Posters who expect their issues to be sympathized with while slandering others as fakers and leeches will never earn my sympathy, it's hypocritical. If someone wants to claim that malingering is a wide-scale problem they should be able to show evidence of that or accept that they haven't made a point, just a strawman. The only way to actually make that point is to ensure everyone has equal access to diagnostic services to show that's fraud and not just people falling through the cracks in the system.


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02 Apr 2020, 6:17 pm

EzraS wrote:
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02 Apr 2020, 8:04 pm

Fnord wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
What I'm saying is that one of the main lines of reasoning that conservatives use to attack social safety net type programs is to suggest that the people making use of them are just lazy and malingering.
This is why preventive medicine is a main feature of company-provided medical insurance policies, and also why elective procedures are not usually covered by those same policies.
funeralxempire wrote:
Additionally that conservatives are often against mandating that workplaces have policies for accommodating those who have disabilities.
I doubt this statement, because there are enforceable laws mandating reasonable accommodations for handicapped employees.  I am not saying that what you said isn't true, but that it may not be true everywhere and all of the time.
funeralxempire wrote:
My one point was that this is a problem because it attacks both potential options that disabled people have to secure an income.
People should be hired for their abilities, not their disabilities.  By this, I mean that people with disabilities need not be hired if they lack the skills necessary for the job.
funeralxempire wrote:
My second point was that it's hypocritical for someone to insist that they should qualify but that others are definitely malingering.  This is an unfair assumption and only leads to policies harmful to the interests of everyone who suffers from some form of disability.
Well now, there are people who have tried to defraud employers by claiming disabilities that they either did not have or could not prove they had -- people who "diagnose" themselves as aspies, for example.



1. The word reasonable is such a vague and abstract term. Who defines this exactly? And, how effective is the americans with disabilities act anyway? Has it really helped those with disabilities get employed? What is the ratio of those who became employed under it vs those who didn't? Did things really change all that much since the passing of this law?

And, if I'm applying online which most employers require us to do how exactly do I use the disability act when it comes to their BS applications including the personality tests. None of the applications gives the option to invoke it in any kind of way. So, how does the disabilities act help us at all?

2. I assume you were a hiring manager at one point right? Did you just select for skills only? Or, did one's personality count as well? I assume you know they employers use personality tests right? And, employers use them to make their hiring decisions? Do you think the average autistic person has the "right" personality employers want?

What sort of answer was I supposed to put to the question "Do I believe that life is not fair?" Again, the question is to abstract and vague and context determines the answer.

Another thing, a lot of employers today want years of experience in a variety of skills. Let's say one skill they want is C#. They want 2-3 years of experience. I could know C#. I self-studied in the book. And, let's say I take an exam proving I know it. Would that be good enough for employers who not only want the skills but the experience as well?

This was one of the main things I needed guidance on over the years.

3. These are some of the accomodations I would need.

a. If I do anything wrong can you spell out what I did wrong, why was it was wrong and what steps I need to correct it in specific and concrete terms. Don't tell me to be more professional or I need to be more positive.

b. Can you state in specific terms what your performance metric and standards are? In other words, can you lay out in specific terms and concrete what your rules and standards are exactly?

c. You as the employer want me to take initiative. What are my constraints exactly? What is it that I'm required to do exactly? What is it that is not required? What is it that I'm authorized to do? What am I not authorized to do? Let's say I'm a janitor. Are there areas of the building I'm not allowed to go to clean? And, what is optional vs mandatory? If you say "I suggest you do ...." is your suggestion really something your requiring me to do or is it really a suggestion?

Another problem I have with taking initative is the assumption I would be able to see what needs to be done and do it. For one to do this, I would have to be extremly observant. I'm introspective, extremely so. Which means I'm in my own head for the most part. How do I get outside of my own head to be more observant if being observant is not part of my personality type? And, what do I observe to take this initiative? How do I know it is really supposed to be done and that I'm allowed and supposed to do it?

These are some of my issues.

4. Someone who is willing to explain the personality test questions and how to interpret them properly.

5. I've been told I overthink things and quit doing that even by professionals. Ok, and? This is like telling an overweight person they should lose weight. Ok, what methods can I use to quit overthinking? What specifically can I do exactly? Telling me to quit overthinking things is useless without some kind of concrete, specific, step by step plan of action.



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04 Apr 2020, 9:13 am

EzraS wrote:
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Haha! So true :lol:


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04 Apr 2020, 9:27 pm

Fnord wrote:
AspiePrincess611 wrote:
... I disagree that conservatives would take benefits away from those who really, truly do need them.  They just want a more stringent vetting process to weed out those who are just being lazy (I know people like this).  As for how to weed out those truly in need from the lazy, I don't have an answer, and I'm not sure anyone does.
[color=black]There are many companies that reward employees for exposing "Fraud, Waste, and Abuse".  One type of fraud is filing false disability claims.  Thus, if the reward is 10% of the recoverable losses, and the recoverable losses total $100,000 (U.S.), then the whistle-blower stands to receive $10,000 for handing over a video recording of a supposedly disabled co-worker water-skiing at Lake Tahoe (to cite a recent real-world example).


As a former whistleblower, I can tell you that not everything goes in the favor of the whistleblower. It can easily damage your career for life. You have to be very careful in the process if you decide to do so. The good ole’ boys system is still alive and well in some parts of the US. You would be shocked to know what sometimes gets done behind the scenes.

In my case, I had no choice but to do the right thing to protect the health of others. I was fired for it and partially blackballed in that area until I proved to the state that I was correct in doing what I did. I lost financially from the act, not gained. My only real gain was that I could sleep well at night knowing I had ethics.



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05 Apr 2020, 2:02 am

cubedemon6073 wrote:
Fnord wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
What I'm saying is that one of the main lines of reasoning that conservatives use to attack social safety net type programs is to suggest that the people making use of them are just lazy and malingering.
This is why preventive medicine is a main feature of company-provided medical insurance policies, and also why elective procedures are not usually covered by those same policies.
funeralxempire wrote:
Additionally that conservatives are often against mandating that workplaces have policies for accommodating those who have disabilities.
I doubt this statement, because there are enforceable laws mandating reasonable accommodations for handicapped employees.  I am not saying that what you said isn't true, but that it may not be true everywhere and all of the time.
funeralxempire wrote:
My one point was that this is a problem because it attacks both potential options that disabled people have to secure an income.
People should be hired for their abilities, not their disabilities.  By this, I mean that people with disabilities need not be hired if they lack the skills necessary for the job.
funeralxempire wrote:
My second point was that it's hypocritical for someone to insist that they should qualify but that others are definitely malingering.  This is an unfair assumption and only leads to policies harmful to the interests of everyone who suffers from some form of disability.
Well now, there are people who have tried to defraud employers by claiming disabilities that they either did not have or could not prove they had -- people who "diagnose" themselves as aspies, for example.



1. The word reasonable is such a vague and abstract term. Who defines this exactly? And, how effective is the americans with disabilities act anyway? Has it really helped those with disabilities get employed? What is the ratio of those who became employed under it vs those who didn't? Did things really change all that much since the passing of this law?

And, if I'm applying online which most employers require us to do how exactly do I use the disability act when it comes to their BS applications including the personality tests. None of the applications gives the option to invoke it in any kind of way. So, how does the disabilities act help us at all?

2. I assume you were a hiring manager at one point right? Did you just select for skills only? Or, did one's personality count as well? I assume you know they employers use personality tests right? And, employers use them to make their hiring decisions? Do you think the average autistic person has the "right" personality employers want?

What sort of answer was I supposed to put to the question "Do I believe that life is not fair?" Again, the question is to abstract and vague and context determines the answer.

Another thing, a lot of employers today want years of experience in a variety of skills. Let's say one skill they want is C#. They want 2-3 years of experience. I could know C#. I self-studied in the book. And, let's say I take an exam proving I know it. Would that be good enough for employers who not only want the skills but the experience as well?

This was one of the main things I needed guidance on over the years.

3. These are some of the accomodations I would need.

a. If I do anything wrong can you spell out what I did wrong, why was it was wrong and what steps I need to correct it in specific and concrete terms. Don't tell me to be more professional or I need to be more positive.

b. Can you state in specific terms what your performance metric and standards are? In other words, can you lay out in specific terms and concrete what your rules and standards are exactly?

c. You as the employer want me to take initiative. What are my constraints exactly? What is it that I'm required to do exactly? What is it that is not required? What is it that I'm authorized to do? What am I not authorized to do? Let's say I'm a janitor. Are there areas of the building I'm not allowed to go to clean? And, what is optional vs mandatory? If you say "I suggest you do ...." is your suggestion really something your requiring me to do or is it really a suggestion?

Another problem I have with taking initative is the assumption I would be able to see what needs to be done and do it. For one to do this, I would have to be extremly observant. I'm introspective, extremely so. Which means I'm in my own head for the most part. How do I get outside of my own head to be more observant if being observant is not part of my personality type? And, what do I observe to take this initiative? How do I know it is really supposed to be done and that I'm allowed and supposed to do it?

These are some of my issues.

4. Someone who is willing to explain the personality test questions and how to interpret them properly.

5. I've been told I overthink things and quit doing that even by professionals. Ok, and? This is like telling an overweight person they should lose weight. Ok, what methods can I use to quit overthinking? What specifically can I do exactly? Telling me to quit overthinking things is useless without some kind of concrete, specific, step by step plan of action.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWuQVpBeqLs



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05 Apr 2020, 2:15 am

funeralxempire wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Well now, there are people who have tried to defraud employers by claiming disabilities that they either did not have or could not prove they had -- people who "diagnose" themselves as aspies, for example.


I'm not suggesting that fraud doesn't ever occur, only that it's not common enough to use it as an excuse for gutting programs or making them nearly impossible to qualify for.

As for 'that they couldn't prove', that's often a difficult situation for those who lack resources. I was pretty certain I was autistic years before I had a diagnosis to confirm it. I obviously had it the whole time so I was dealing with all the same issues only with no explanation. Had I not spent my last $2000 on pursuing testing I still wouldn't have a diagnosis, would this mean I don't have those struggles? Obviously not. So if I claimed it, I obviously wouldn't be attempting to defraud, it was true even if I couldn't prove it at the time.

When posters wish to act like they have more insight into what someone else is dealing with than that person themselves, I'm going to call BS. Posters who expect their issues to be sympathized with while slandering others as fakers and leeches will never earn my sympathy, it's hypocritical. If someone wants to claim that malingering is a wide-scale problem they should be able to show evidence of that or accept that they haven't made a point, just a strawman. The only way to actually make that point is to ensure everyone has equal access to diagnostic services to show that's fraud and not just people falling through the cracks in the system.


I totally agree with you. Anyone who claims malingering is a wide scale issue should be able to prove this. And, malingering is a form of lying, correct? For one to lie there would have to be intent. The intent has to be proven. If anyone claims the other person(s) is lying or malingering then shouldn't they have to prove intent?



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05 Apr 2020, 4:31 pm

I am :(


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05 Apr 2020, 5:09 pm

cubedemon6073 wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Well now, there are people who have tried to defraud employers by claiming disabilities that they either did not have or could not prove they had -- people who "diagnose" themselves as aspies, for example.


I'm not suggesting that fraud doesn't ever occur, only that it's not common enough to use it as an excuse for gutting programs or making them nearly impossible to qualify for.

As for 'that they couldn't prove', that's often a difficult situation for those who lack resources. I was pretty certain I was autistic years before I had a diagnosis to confirm it. I obviously had it the whole time so I was dealing with all the same issues only with no explanation. Had I not spent my last $2000 on pursuing testing I still wouldn't have a diagnosis, would this mean I don't have those struggles? Obviously not. So if I claimed it, I obviously wouldn't be attempting to defraud, it was true even if I couldn't prove it at the time.

When posters wish to act like they have more insight into what someone else is dealing with than that person themselves, I'm going to call BS. Posters who expect their issues to be sympathized with while slandering others as fakers and leeches will never earn my sympathy, it's hypocritical. If someone wants to claim that malingering is a wide-scale problem they should be able to show evidence of that or accept that they haven't made a point, just a strawman. The only way to actually make that point is to ensure everyone has equal access to diagnostic services to show that's fraud and not just people falling through the cracks in the system.


I totally agree with you. Anyone who claims malingering is a wide scale issue should be able to prove this. And, malingering is a form of lying, correct? For one to lie there would have to be intent. The intent has to be proven. If anyone claims the other person(s) is lying or malingering then shouldn't they have to prove intent?


I would agree. Even if they can't prove intent, they should at the very least be able to that some portion aren't legitimate to lend credibility to the idea. But, with neither aspect proven I can't pretend that it's a significant concern.


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05 Apr 2020, 6:07 pm

It just occurred to me that I might count as unemployed again. In theory I have an employer and they believe they will have a position for me to return to, but as long as Honda isn't building cars that position is only a hypothetical again.

It's weird to have a job, but not work, not have to go there and to not get paid at all, and to also have a source of income that certainly requires work, but doesn't really represent a lot of my time being tied up like a job and largely is on my own terms.


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06 Apr 2020, 3:36 am

funeralxempire wrote:
cubedemon6073 wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Well now, there are people who have tried to defraud employers by claiming disabilities that they either did not have or could not prove they had -- people who "diagnose" themselves as aspies, for example.


I'm not suggesting that fraud doesn't ever occur, only that it's not common enough to use it as an excuse for gutting programs or making them nearly impossible to qualify for.

As for 'that they couldn't prove', that's often a difficult situation for those who lack resources. I was pretty certain I was autistic years before I had a diagnosis to confirm it. I obviously had it the whole time so I was dealing with all the same issues only with no explanation. Had I not spent my last $2000 on pursuing testing I still wouldn't have a diagnosis, would this mean I don't have those struggles? Obviously not. So if I claimed it, I obviously wouldn't be attempting to defraud, it was true even if I couldn't prove it at the time.

When posters wish to act like they have more insight into what someone else is dealing with than that person themselves, I'm going to call BS. Posters who expect their issues to be sympathized with while slandering others as fakers and leeches will never earn my sympathy, it's hypocritical. If someone wants to claim that malingering is a wide-scale problem they should be able to show evidence of that or accept that they haven't made a point, just a strawman. The only way to actually make that point is to ensure everyone has equal access to diagnostic services to show that's fraud and not just people falling through the cracks in the system.


I totally agree with you. Anyone who claims malingering is a wide scale issue should be able to prove this. And, malingering is a form of lying, correct? For one to lie there would have to be intent. The intent has to be proven. If anyone claims the other person(s) is lying or malingering then shouldn't they have to prove intent?


I would agree. Even if they can't prove intent, they should at the very least be able to that some portion aren't legitimate to lend credibility to the idea. But, with neither aspect proven I can't pretend that it's a significant concern.


One of the tests social security does is to test for malingering.



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06 Apr 2020, 9:28 am

[MOD]

I appreciate that emotions are running high, but let's cool our jets.

There's no need for rudeness or nastiness.

[/MOD]


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