Emotion Management - Info from Attwood conference

Post Reply New Topic

Aye, so you did, Zonder.

I never went farther than reading the Wikipedia entry on CBT, and for me, that was enough. Just knowing that I could, if I chose, apply a technique akin to the Buddhist "mindfulness", and use this awareness to respond to life's events in a more thoughtful way than I might otherwise have done — that by itself was useful. I felt no need to follow a program or do tasks out of a workbook, although I could understand why someone might find that helpful. And I didn't pay a cent to anyone, other than the Internet connection charges which I would have had to pay anyway.

I know we all have strong opinions, but there is no need to descend to personal abuse to get our points across, is there?

I wish I had been here over the weekend to contribute to this, but I wasn't, so.....

Merle: My anger is part of who I am - if I were to not react to things that annoy me, I would turn into exactly the kind of passive wimp that I so despise - i.e. a totally different person altogether, who just stands back & lets the whole world walk over me. In order to keep my personal identity, I cannot allow this to happen.

Chesapeaker: I wish you had not left, because there is so much that I would like to have said to you. On the off-chance that you are still reading, I will say some of it anyway.

Describing your husband as an emotional child is spot-on accurate. It is exactly how I would describe myself. (However, I would never have resorted to the type of violence you describe, and you were absolutely right to have left him.)

However, not all aspies are as extreme in our behaviour as this, and I can understand why your generalisation did not go down well.

What is so very very interesting about your post is that you are talking about the "part of him that is missing" in that he could not give you "what you needed".

Now think about this issue from an aspie's point of view.

How would you feel if the whole of human society was telling you that you were defective, purely & simply because you "needed" these things? That his behaviour was perfectly normal & reasonable, & it was you that needed "fixing" in order to suppress these irrational needs and make you the same as him.

That babies such as yourself should be brainwashed at birth to make sure that they never grew up with such needs in the first place.

You'd be outraged, right?

Think about it.

I am truly sorry that you had to be married to an abusive husband - but as I said, you need to understand that most aspies are oblivious rather than deliberately cruel (though that may be hard to believe judging by some of the abuse that people have posted on this thread!)

To return to the original topic - I have no objection to the type of CBT that helps people in depressions, pain & distress.

The important thing about it though is that it should never be undertaken without the full and willing co-operation of the subject.

i.e. in my case, I would be more than happy to have something to help change my procrastination, lateness etc, because these behaviours have such a negative impact on my life - but I would not consent to being brainwashed into changing my core values and identity.

I don't want to add more bad feeling to this thread, but there was a line that really irked me & I feel it deems refutation. Last sentence (below) really "threw me for a loop".
On pg. 9 of thread:

Sorry, that's a specious argument & not at all applicable as some sort of evidence based, validated, reliable "test' that either rules in or excludes a particular dx. It can describe some individuals (both AS & NT), but certainly isn't appropriate/accurate assessment towards an entire group.

Am not trying to invalidate nor coerce anyone into disbelieving or renouncing his/her own interpretations & individual perceptions of first-hand events/occurrences/interactions. Each person's life experiences provide different conclusions-but all humans are limited in ability to understand one another. No demographic or neurological category has monopoly on being "good" or "bad", nor do all members of any group embody all characteristics contained within that group.

It sounds like chesapeaker is the one that has the REAL problems. And I HATE people that are SO stuck up and egotistical that they actually believe that if you don't fall in love with them that you must be homosexual or something.

zzzzzzzzzz......zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Quoting Sleepy Dragon:

An excellent approach. Beck is from my neck of the woods, "University of Pennsylvania". I read his book about depression and found it extremely insightful. I know very little about CBT, but then, I know very little about many forms of therapy. Still, sometimes just knowing a little can give you that extra something you need to get through rough times. Not many people I know can afford to pay for the workshops and programs, but the books and the internet are a great asset. Check out the link below.

Aaron Beck in Philadelphia

Last edited by cosmiccat on 27 May 2008, 8:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

Smelena - Thanks for passing on your notes from the Attwood conference. I think they might be of some help to my daughter who is raising her 6 year old Aspie grandson. I have copied them and printed them out and will give them to her later today. I have already given her one of Tony's books, forget the name right now, but she has learned much from it.

I read Beck, tried out Beck processes, it made no difference at all. Was just nice gooey reading for a couple of months.

Was first directly exposed to CBT when went for counselling for a few months, ( after depression while in a job had led me to visit a doctor about it for the first time). The psychologist presented CBT to me, and it might aswell have been train timetables for all the use it was to me. I took the list of examples of mental re-programming away with me, and looked at them with no comprehension at all.

Two/three years later I went on the weekend course "The Lifetraining" ( now called "More to Life"); went when stuck, emerging from a tedious 9 month relationship, and after deciding beforehand not to resist anything about it, even if it led to a break down, because I was so bored of myself. I also ate only nuts and fruit all weekend so I gave myself a fasting high.

And in the framework of this weekend I finally got it, what it meant. It was intoxicating, to think that I could, if I did the work, if I continued re-programming my thoughts/beliefs, do/be almost anything. Physical matters were of no importance. Headaches were the result of believing that pressure in the head was frightening, etc. Pain was all in the head.

Buddhist, in a way. But buddhism's mindfulness includes, as an integral, essential part of its teaching, as an inextricable part of its approach, hundreds/thousands of hours of physical exercises in which learn how to control one's breathing, and how to eat, how to sit, etc; on a foundation of precise structure and routine. A life of peace, quiet, and ritual.

CBT does not include training in the control of physical processes. It is only half the buddhist story, and as such is very dangerous, when it is not simply misleading. It is a classically Western version, obsessed with the powers of the mind, dismissive of the body in all that.

And buddhism does not teach changing the beliefs you notice scurrying in your head. It does not presume that we have such power. It simply advises noticing them and ignoring them. Nothing about reprogramming. It would not be so stupid.

Continued: Just realising that I did learn one healthy thing with CBT; and that was the "noticing", ... and I threw it out with the rest of the CBT stuff to do with "swopping beliefs for other ones that make you feel better" etc, because the rest of it had been so bad for me, had in fact as time passed stopped me noticing.

The "noticing", hearing/seeing what is being burbled/wafffled/muttered in the background of the mind all the time, was useful. Interesting. Enlightening.

But the trouble is that the power of this increased perception was/is linked to the more profitable, ( because addictive and causing psychological dependency on booster courses etc), delusional, CBT idea that we can exchange beliefs for others, free ourselves of "negative" beliefs forever, ( with the help of certain processes, often "impressively" emotionally cathartic) etc.

I hereby concede that one aspect of CBT is good, the buddhist mindfulness/"noticing" part; but the stuff about replacing/moulding/choosing our beliefs is deeply wrong, pernicious junk.

Last edited by ouinon on 28 May 2008, 12:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

"Oh Benelovent gift waves of reality,
grant me the ability to know all things,
by seeing, hearing, and reflecting."

The goal is to know our true reality as it can be percieved by our senses.

It is the path to being liberated from false beliefs and human fads, such as CBT.

"Know Thyself", "Unto thine own self be true", Have long been the highest goals of the wise.

"Unto thine own self be true,
and you will be false to no man,
but wear the best clothes you can,
for clothes make the man."

No one has promoted wearing a cloak of self deception and lying to all others, but Machavelli.


In the Mahabharata Krishna tells Ajurna that even if all of the people of your town, your closest kinsmen, are drawn up for battle facing you, that is to be of no concern. No matter how much loyality and affection you hold for them, you must take your given place in the battle line, and strive for your truth. The struggle is not for riches and power, not for self glory, but only for truth.

"Many lives have you and I lived together, you remember this one, I remember them all."

Krishna is talking of things that are true through time, through generations, and always will be true.

The goal has always been ridding yourself of false belief.

All religions and belief systems are grounded on Nobel Truths.

All Science is the search for Truth.

Discover our truth. I can remember anything that I can connect to my core of proven knowledge, and forget anything that is mearly words and numbers without connection. I have an orderly data base, it is how I see the world.

NT seems to run on a partial and mixed lot of opinions and fads, which can be quickly changed, their lifetime loyality to one sports team can change when they move to another town. Their view of life is local, and they have short term situational ethics.

They are CBT in action, living a lie to constantly position themselves for winning through manipulation.

CBT is saying that your idenitity and knowledge are worth nothing, and whatever best manipulates those around you is the best path. The ability to lie to others is directly based on how much you believe your lies to your self, about your self. Those who are naturally gifted at the art we call Psychopaths.

It is not just a tool, it is an attack on the forming mind of a child. It is telling a child that a false view of self, and telling lies that make others happy, is the most important thing.

I disagree with pschobabble, but find some truth. NT has a sub concious mind, It runs on a tiny percentage that it is presently aware of, and the rest is hidden from them. There is no connection between them, and the mass of data the brain stores. Their aware mind can change quickly, and they will deny any past. They truely do forget their Hippie/drugggie days once they become Born Again Right Wing Conservatives.

Autistics do not have this sepperation of mind. We are Wilki Brained, remember everything, and have it filed. Acting out of our data base is the problem. We cannot be like the other children, because their are thirty of them, and we are one, half of them are girls, and all of them are living fragments of a whole that we aspire to become. They lack consistancy, cannot form a sentance that says what they mean, for they do not have an exact meaning they are trying to convey.

The reasoning goes something like, in a Democracy, the majority have an IQ below 100. Since they are the majority they must be right. They have a right to subject everyone to the people they elect to make laws. They demand that everyone comform to their world view and obey their laws. The 49% with IQ's over 100 are forced to serve the majority, and have no say so in how things are run.

As only 25% obtain a University education, they are a controlled minority. As only 1% are Autistic, and are uncontrolled, most thought centers on a cure that will exterminate the uncontrolled.

No one wants to have a Science based rational discussion with us, the opinions of adult Autistics are ignored. Being unable to win through manipulation, social skills, which we are somewhat immune to, they lead an attack on the children, to destroy them before they can say, "The Emporer has no clothes."

I have seen several say this. I AM a bit wikkibrained. I remember a LOT. It used to be VERY well filed.

Still, I have to say I have a subconscious. My subconscious is almost like a companion. SOMETIMES it will tell me a LOT, and sometimes it will just sit there. Still, it is clear that it is VERY intelligent. I have tried to get closer to it for DECADES, and usually fail. Are you actually saying that you have such close communication with your subconscious that you view it as your conscious?

The subconscious is so fantastic, that it would be hard to believe that many here really have full access.

Zukenkerl

I have access to the files. I am not my body, I am not my mind. "I" exists seperate.

I think it krex who described self as a spider on the brain who looked out through the eyes.

I am not my thought, that was best described by LabPet, as a mosaic of all possible futures seen at once.

I am not my creative, for "I" am suprised by some of the connections made.

The mind/brain is an amazing thing, still full of the wonder of discovery.

"I" am Ego, not self. "I" am the highest connected to the flesh, and the lowest connected to the overself, Atman.

"I" run the ape, who really just needs a caring friend. A keeper.

The very intelligent one you describe is what I call Atman. The body is the candle, "I' am the wick, Atman is the flame. It rarely looks down, we ape runners are but a service industry, expected to run without notice.

I have noticed two cases of intervention. When the ape is facing sudden death, Atman acts and the ape without thought, without "I" leaps ten foot out of the path of a speeding car in a split second. It moves so fast the body hurts for days.

The second is when "I" come to a point of real interest, a discovery of merit, something that advances my thought and knowledge, making a better "I", then the Atman comes as a teacher, and reinforces that thought, expands that knowledge, and gives me a glowing cosmic light that I never forget the importance and value of knowledge.

I am glad for the gift, but know I could not live like that. I stop, stare, and if it continued, would starve to death on that spot. In small doses it is great.

"I" am a bit of awareness given to run the ape, live through it's senses, and find and consume fuel to produce energy, to power the Atman.

"I" can understand the ape. "I" can control it. "I" know it is a thing and it will die.

"I" am aware of the Atman, that "I" am the same, but a lessor awareness, but more Atman than ape.

Atman does teach me, cares for "I" like "I" cares for ape. "I" am the servant of Atman, Master of ape, it is my superior self, for I feel one with it, not the ape though.

"I" cannot control Atman, but can be good at my role. Atman is many times my level of awareness, mental power, intelligence, and will speak to me at times. The ape will die, "I" think Atman an Immortal, and am not sure about "I".

"I" have only one choice, the corruption of apes, or true service to Atman.

Logically "I" am the connection point between Atman and ape, and as "I" do not identify with the ape, a common thought around here, and Atman services this part sometimes, "I" am part of Atman. "I" am between the flesh and the spirit.

The "I" that knows this language, one ape, this time, is not very useful in a longer term view. None of my daily tasks would be worth keeping, except my awareness of serving Atman.

It is NT to spend most effort on social interaction with others. It is of value, needed to keep the world running, just not my place in life.

Autistics lack the social drive, and have special interests. That is fairly our whole description. We are obsessive about learning everything about a subject, and often how it connects to other subjects, sometimes spending years, and when done, drop the whole thing and could not care less, and perhaps start on another subject.

Mostly we have the knowledge, yet do not write books on it. We do not work in the field and make a career of it.

So who/what are we making such detailed reports for?

Most of the Natural World, a reason can be found for any behavior.

Survival? Mating? Power? Our Special Interests seem to not give us anything, often harm our chances for survival, mating, in fact we do mate less, are socially isolated, and most of us like it that way.

So what purpose could we serve in the grand scheme of things?

If we were very rare, 1 in 10,000, and had more differances, I could see we are defects in normal human development. Not only are we not rare, we have a whole lot in common.

Social isolation, intense focus, and learning what every Professor and Researcher has had to offer on a subject. Spending years on a subject, dropping it when there was nothing else to learn, then perhaps coming back in five years to update our knowledge, which we never do anything with.

If there was a Spiritual overself that wanted knowledge, and some apes were more overself and less ape, that would explain us. The idea that apes have immortal souls is rdiculous. They are apes.

That an Immortal Spirit had an ape, to use and discard in death makes more sense.

Normal development till two or three, then sudden change, a rewiring of the brain, and a very different life. Common outcomes. Some goods get damaged along the way, but that is to be expected, apes trying to fix things they do not understand.

I only get glimpses of the Atman, "I" never get invited to the parties, or get Atman Internet access, though some report an Akashic record of all things, so it seems there is a data base, and that is where "I" think our reports get filed.

"I" do not think random chance explains us. That we are needed shows that Atman or no, it still cannot function and learn without enslaving apes. It can only function on the material plane through us, the least valueable of apes, to most views.

There is a pronounced direction of change in Apedom. This Science and Technology is getting good and picking up speed. Most of our Special Interests are Science and Technology. We are building something that apes have little use for.

We seem to be building something superior to an ape brain and means of communication. Perhaps we are building new hosts for Atman? Computers networked and connected to machines that make machines, robots that move things, and while I am smarter than my computer, I do not think that will last.

We are hardly 150 years from discovery of the principals of electricity, 100 from Tesla, 50 from intergrated circuts, 10 from an open and functioning Internet, we are going somewhere.

While I can funcction in NT mode, I do not really pass. It is stressful and tiring, and not good for children. Hence my opinion of CBT for Autistic children.

I naturally live farther back in the brain. Art, writing, Science, are not the same as frontal lobe chatter. When "I" speak from where "I" live, mid brain, the NT world does not relate. So I would think NT's have a mid brain, can learn concepts that come from there, Science, Art, Technology, but only on a conversational level.

I see myself living in their sub councious. The Atman, is not a brain function, it is outside and above.
This aloft friend, teacher, companion, is too powerful to live within, speaks to me sometimes, and is in control of the ape. It catches what I miss, can take control in an instant, bypass me, and save the ape.

One learned in a Psych class. When an ape burns it's hand, before the signal of pain reaches the top of the arm, that slow bioelectric stuff, the arm pulls the hand away. The hand is away before the signal reaches the brain, where "I" hang out. The same response worked with an ape killing car, where the ape jumped ten foot, in a split second, much faster than "I" or ape can respond.

The first could have a biological explanation, the second says a protector.

Having no choice, I like being Autistic, serving the Atman makes more sense than serving apes.

"I" would like to hear any other explanations of what and why we are.

I know a few accurate things about myself:

I am intelligent.

I have followed my own path.

I can have truly beautiful interactions with people, and feel that I am contributing to this world, but these are sometimes interspersed with a deep aversion to myself and others and a fear that I will fail.

I am very hard on myself and always have been.

Under certain stress conditions, I shut down emotionally.

I've had low grade depression for as much as a decade at a time, with little relief.

I've wanted to have intimate relationships, not because other people do, but because I am human. As much as I try to make them succeed, they haven't up to this point in my life, so I alternate between avoidance and more avoidance.

I fixate on topics that interest me.

The stress of working, social interaction, and living can produce much emotional and physical pain in my body.

When I was an adolescent I realized what was probably the greatest truth about myself - that I was treated badly because of my actions. I learned this on my own because of the circumstances of my early life and my intelligence. Understanding I needed to change just happened, there was not one external force that encouraged me to do so, other than the behavior of other adolescents who were targeting me, the odd boy. There were family and church members who actually discouraged me from caring about my appearance, learning what was popular so I could participate in some small talk, or exercising so I wouldn't have the poor health of so many I knew.

In working hard to be more acceptable, I never once lost sight of my identity, and my "acting normal" or "lying" to others was not intended to manipulate others in any way other than stopping bullies from targeting me. It was self-preservation. Again, I figured this out on my own and I had absolutely no encouragement from others. Acting still remains self-preservation because it has allowed me to earn a living.

Some of the lies I've told myself for years have been: I'm so stupid. I look like crap. I'm fat. I'm lazy. I'm an idiot. I'm a freak. I'm stuck. I am not capable of experiencing love. These are the lies that I have worked to change. If anyone thinks that encouraging a child or an adult to change these thoughts is undesirably manipulative, I might label that person a psychopath.

For my first 39 years I figured that I could improve the difficulties I experience on my own. I've been very good at attacking the problems I face to try to improve them. But in middle age I hit a brick wall and found that I needed help - if for nothing else than to exist, to not follow a path taken by members of my family to end my existence. This has been a very real fear for me. If you are physically healthy but your mind and body are full of pain that is unpredictable at best and constant at worst, you must find a path if you want to live.

My questions are these: If I am a parent with a child who has anxiety, and meltdowns, and depression, what am I to do to help? What if I am an ASD parent with an ASD child and I understand all of the dangers that therapies can pose? Can I use nothing because I can find nothing that fits into some perfect logical construct?

If the choice is between constant anxiety and pain and relief from that pain; or between existing and not existing, what method, or system, or relationship is acceptable? Assuming that I am capable of being honest with myself, of not deluding myself, and not being motivated by manipulating others, I'd have to answer my question, "Whatever works for me."

I don't have answers for parents, but I believe that there are enlightened ones who want their children to be themselves and to be comfortable with their existences, and to excel. I believe that they can make the right decisions, too.

Z

Zonder...."what ever works for me" is the problem . Perhaps I misunderstand what your saying but I read it as...

The parents with AS children want what is best for their children and "whatever works for me" <---(the parent in question),is the answer.

Yet, logic would seem to suggest...that whatever works for one neurology may very well not only not work for another but actually be harmful

EX:My parent is diabetic and eats something or take insulin when they feel certain physiological warning signs that their blood sugar is "out of balance". But if they look at me, and judge my behavior based on their own experiences...they might kill me. I am not diabetic. If I show signs of fatigue or agitation it is not my blood sugar. I may need quit time away from stimulation, I may need some form of sensory input.

What animal, known to man, moves without some good reason. If I rock, scream,cry,yell ,fan myself, jump up and down...I am doing so for a reason. Biological beings do not waste energy with out expecting something in return for that energy. For some, it is very simple...I am trying to communicate something to someone.....I am in need of sensory input...I want to avoid to much sensory input. So before the behavior is changed...shouldn't it be asked why the individual is exhibiting such behavior ?

I have worked with developmentally delayed and the assumptions in writing their "plans" are all based on NT assumptions. NT's want to feel like they are contributing something and be productive members of society. So they design these "work shops" where a bunch of DD's, (who are all at different levels of functioning) to sit still at a table for hours and count 12 screws to put into a bag....don't worry, they aren't exploited...they get about $12- $30 a week unless they stop working..in which case the money is deducted until they start again. These people who design these programs...are they the same people we want deciding what is best for "aspie children" ? Inspite of the DX of DD most of these clients know the work they are doing is just bull and they "act out"/rebel and have consequences...for being right?


The problem comes when a group with one neurology decides what is best for all neurology's. "It works for me".

When I do "Act A" I am accused of attention seeking because some NT's pay attention to that kind of behavior. I do not do "act A" to get attention and would usually prefer not to have attention, but because that is something that many NT's crave...they project their need on to my behavior. If I had the time, I could give you several more examples of this flawed reasoning, but let me just say, I have experienced it repeatedly and heard the same from many other AS people here. I have come to call this, "Lack of aspie ToM"....and no amount of CBT/ABA/ waterboarding, is going to be helpful until it is acknowledged and excepted for the NT disability that is is.


I truely believe that there are AS and NT parents who do want more then to shut their kids up...they want them to not suffer. To believe otherwise is just to painful to me. I just hope that in that desire they don't end up trading one set of "traits' for another form of pathology...the kind I see in some "cured" aspies who come here and attack other aspies for not trying hard enough, or who lack any interests because "it isn't cool" . If I was forced to "like" to socialize more and be more like "that sweet chearleader"(who mom didn't know spent lunch break giving head to the football team at lunch), I think I would also have ended up being as lazy as 90% of the staff I worked with who ignored the DD clients to talk about how drunk they were going to get that night. Count your blessings and think about what is right about what your child does and values.

You can rub off one side of a coin because you don't like the image but it will lose it's value. A coin always has two sides that are joined in ways we don't yet understand.

Thanks for the response, krex, I am in agreement with you, and I probably wasn't very clear about the final points of my post.

The "what ever works for me" is about an individual who makes an informed decision for her- or himself.

The last two sentences of my post are a comment on parents who are informed about the Autism Spectrum and are capable of making appropriate decisions about the care of their children. Much of what I see discussed here seems to imply that parents are not capable of understanding their children, and it occurred to me that in all the talk about NTs forcing therapies on their AS children, isn't it possible that there are AS parents of AS children who have a deep understanding of AS and make informed decisions based upon that unique insight? Is it possible for a NT to have such insight?

Z

As an AS parent of an AS child, I have considerable insight into what my son thinks and feels. I'm prepared to go to some lengths to spare him some of the pain and uncertainty that I endured. I wouldn't wish for his life to be completely free of obstacles or problems, even if it were possible to make it that way. This would not be a kindness to him. But I do want him to be relaxed and calm and happy. I do want him to be equipped with knowledge about the way his mind works. I do want him to become a competent and self-confident adult. And I would very much like to see him be accepted and liked by other people.

I spent far too many years wondering, "What's wrong with me? Why don't people like me?" and I don't want him to go through that.

Hell's bells, maybe Blessedmom and I should put our heads together and write our own self-help guide for parents and children on the spectrum.