The Pro-Cure Thread

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Tails
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24 Dec 2008, 2:15 pm

Tantybi wrote:

The Nt's think they are the superior ones and discriminate over it, and a lot of people seem to view it that way when the NT's start throwing around the word cure because they fear they will be eliminated through genetic preferencing and forceful cures (which isn't the most rational thinking, but I've seen those thoughts on the forum).

The NTs do this... the NTs do that... the NTs think this... the NTs discrimimate... the NTs think they are superior... this thread is FULL of people attempting to turn several BILLION unique individual people into some sort of scary NT closet-monster.

An NT person can be JUST as varied in JUST as many ways as any of us can. They're not evil. They don't, generally, think they are superior to us. For the most part, they don't actually know we exist. They have their lives, their cares, their hopes, dreams and worries like anyone else. Of those who do know about ASDs, some may be on the cure bandwagon, some may be vehemently against it.

You can't use 'NT' as a catch-all label for traits and behaviours you don't like. People in general are just too diverse to fit nicely there.

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ThisIsNotMyRealName
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24 Dec 2008, 2:24 pm

Naturella wrote:

DeanFoley wrote:

DeanFoley wrote:
... I'm just so sick and tired of the amount of arrogance, stupidity and plain ignorance about AS and Autism as a whole by too many members here. NT's are being described as these...intolerant, hateful, demonic, semi-intelligent beings and Aspies here seem to think this is some...higher power. ...
.

I entirely agree with you on that. But the idea of AS superpower sells very well on this forum. If you endorce the AS superiority - your oppinion is going to be very popular and you are going to be a highly respected person by the majority, who like to view themselves superior. This is the only place where they can claim their superpower, so.. may be it is just cruel to deprive them of this dream? Anyway, they are not going to buy your down to earth point of view. This point of view is what they know already and what reality shows them every day. But superpower is something they can only get here.

What an insightful post, Naturalla.

If you are in any way anti-AS-SuperPower or pro-cure, you'll ultimately be booted off the forums - more particularly so if you win your argument.

Never forget that WP was originally set up to give voice to AS, anti-cure sympathisers - and nothing has particularly changed since then ... other than that the depth of anti-NT sentiment has become more visible.

So the moral must be that however convincingly you may win an argument, however respectfully you may make your point, you will ultimately pay a price - because while you may believe this forum is open and democratic, nowhere does it profess to being so for the pro-cure membership.

Truth and progress can never hope to blossom without democracy.

Tantybi
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26 Dec 2008, 12:06 am

Tails wrote:

Tantybi wrote:

I agree that people are diverse, no matter what category they fall in. I was more referring to when an AS person is going on and on about their favorite interest for a couple minutes...how do you expect an NT to respond? It's not like they wake up everyday saying NT Power or I'm awesome because I'm normal. But when they are up against a normal trait of aspergers, without even knowing it's an AS thing, without even realizing AS is there, and without knowing this person is different, they still treat that person inferior just because. I can't say all Aspies have gone through this, but I at least have had many moments where I felt like someone considered me inferior because they couldn't understand what I was saying..resulting from an AS trait of some sort. YOu will even read some people's posts on this forum on how their own psychologist or therapist kinda does that.

It's not a catch all label as much as generally speaking, AS people are expected to conform. That's not fair. Even NT's who are on the AS side of allowing our diversity seem to be incapable of tolerating what makes us diverse. The fact they consider it a disorder worthy of needing a cure (and I'm not talking about severe autism here) only proves their superiority complex.

Warsie
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26 Dec 2008, 12:10 am

Tails wrote:

[
The NTs do this... the NTs do that... the NTs think this... the NTs discrimimate... the NTs think they are superior... this thread is FULL of people attempting to turn several BILLION unique individual people into some sort of scary NT closet-monster.

People in groups act in surprisingly predictable ways. There's books and studies done on social/group psychology that show how people act in groups, ESPECIALLY in stressful situations and in a mob mentality. Easily manipulated by social stigmas, made-up fears, psychological conditioning, etc (watch the documentary 'The Century of the Self' made by the BBC for details on that. the 1950s USA was f****d up, w00t for Greasers) ESPECIALLY when applied to Neurotypicals.

ThisIsNotMyRealName wrote:

If you are in any way anti-AS-SuperPower or pro-cure, you'll ultimately be booted off the forums - more particularly so if you win your argument.

Uh. what? can you provide examples? Even if what you say is true, this is a Pro-AS forum. Not a place for curebies to congregate, as the whole definition of Curebie is anti-autism

Quote:

So the moral must be that however convincingly you may win an argument, however respectfully you may make your point, you will ultimately pay a price - because while you may believe this forum is open and democratic, nowhere does it profess to being so for the pro-cure membership.

This forum is pro-AS. The majority of people here who are not curebies have spoken. So technically this id democracy, only the people who get screwed by democracy are doing the screwing now

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wrongplanetmember
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26 Dec 2008, 6:09 am

I'll make it quick because I've said it numerous times on others threads; Aspergers is a massive pain in the ass for me. I loathe it. I'm 100% pro cure. I see myself as defective, I'm sick of the headaches and the confusion, and given the chance for a cure, I'd be the first in line.

ThisIsNotMyRealName
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26 Dec 2008, 6:44 am

Warsie wrote:

ThisIsNotMyRealName wrote:

If you are in any way anti-AS-SuperPower or pro-cure, you'll ultimately be booted off the forums - more particularly so if you win your argument.

Uh. what? can you provide examples? Even if what you say is true, this is a Pro-AS forum. Not a place for curebies to congregate, as the whole definition of Curebie is anti-autism

Not a place for curebies to congregate ?
I think that about sums it up, doesn't it ?

So as an AS'er, I'm welcome here unless I want my own AS cured ?

As I said, WP never has been and I doubt, ever will be democratic for all.

How say you, Alex ?

rdos
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26 Dec 2008, 6:53 am

The curebies already own Autism Speaks, and many national autism societies world-wide, and you want them to take over WP as well? :roll:

ThisIsNotMyRealName
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26 Dec 2008, 6:55 am

wrongplanetmember wrote:

Oh, but can't you see how your self-loathing has screwed you (and your logic) up ?

</sarcasm off>

You are NOT your affliction.
You manage IN SPITE of your affliction, not because of it.

But seemingly, you're not entitled to aspire to a better life by pharmacologically (or by gene therapy) uncrippling your brain - because that would be 'genocide'.

You appear to be unable to grasp the idea that AS should be cherished, however much suffering and pain it may cause you or your loved ones.

The only REAL value of AS from an evolutionary perspective, is in creating natural hierarchies - but those were only of significant use in the ancestral environment where resources were critically short.
Now it's just the cause of enormous misery and suffering for billions.

ThisIsNotMyRealName
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26 Dec 2008, 6:59 am

rdos wrote:

The curebies already own Autism Speaks, and many national autism societies world-wide, and you want them to take over WP as well? :roll:

Where did I say that ?

And why does it have to be a war ?

Why can't this forum be a place for discussion.

(Hint : discussion requires democracy, not gagging of those on one side of the debate)

rdos
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26 Dec 2008, 7:03 am

ThisIsNotMyRealName wrote:

And why does it have to be a war ?

Because the curebies started the war, and they won't make peace until the genocidal screening instruments are put into place. Most Aspies don't want this war. They want acceptance, but are only offered forced cures and ineffective "treatments".

ThisIsNotMyRealName wrote:

Why can't this forum be a place for discussion.

It is.

ThisIsNotMyRealName wrote:

(Hint : discussion requires democracy, not gagging of those on one side of the debate)

Discussion doesn't mean Aspies need to accept the curebies point of view.

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26 Dec 2008, 7:13 am

AS (which is not the same as 'those who suffer from it') has NOTHING to offer the world - but pain and misery.
It imprisons the mind and prevents it from reaching its full potential.

Obessiveness and perseveration do NOT enhance capabilities or increase output.

AS does NOT extinguish people's natural interests because it is NOT responsible for them having those interests.
Those interests are not a product of AS - they are part of the individual, not the affliction.
Without the affliction, the individual could achieve a great deal more in his area of interest.

Besides which, the anti-curbies only affect 'concern' about the putative loss of said interests in the individual.

The reason for their stance against cure is based entirely in anger, outrage and indignation at the way the world has treated them.
It's nothing to do with the loss of AS genius - which a load of utter baloney, IMHO.

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26 Dec 2008, 7:17 am

rdos wrote:

ThisIsNotMyRealName wrote:

And why does it have to be a war ?

... and the last time someone tried to force a cure on you was ?

rdos wrote:

ThisIsNotMyRealName wrote:

Why can't this forum be a place for discussion.

It is.

ThisIsNotMyRealName wrote:

(Hint : discussion requires democracy, not gagging of those on one side of the debate)

Discussion doesn't mean Aspies need to accept the curebies point of view.

Totally agree.
But nor does it mean that curebies have to be banned from the forum on the scale that they are.
Ever wondered why you can't see whether members are banned here ?
It's so that you can't see the sheer number of curebies who are thrown off the forums (regardless of however polite and respectful they are).

Sound like fertile ground for a democratic debate to you ?

rdos
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26 Dec 2008, 7:29 am

ThisIsNotMyRealName wrote:

AS (which is not the same as 'those who suffer from it') has NOTHING to offer the world - but pain and misery.
It imprisons the mind and prevents it from reaching its full potential.

You mean it prevents them from reaching the ideals defined by NTs? Personally, I currently do not care a lot if I reach the goals of the NT world.

ThisIsNotMyRealName wrote:

Obessiveness and perseveration do NOT enhance capabilities or increase output.

Of course it does. Without this I would have given up on Aspie-quiz before I started (or at least within a short period of time as it offered no immidiate social success). I would also have given up on my operating system, and then I would be working on some crappy Windows CE implementation at work. This kind of determination is what has driven basically every successful researcher to make novel discoveries.

ThisIsNotMyRealName wrote:

AS does NOT extinguish people's natural interests because it is NOT responsible for them having those interests.
Those interests are not a product of AS - they are part of the individual, not the affliction.
Without the affliction, the individual could achieve a great deal more in his area of interest.

Yes, it does extinguish the interest in interests without a direct social success route. I would really hate to dwelve into superficial social interests, and I would additionally be extremely inefficient in such a context as I need to be highly motivated to do anything. The net result is depression.

ThisIsNotMyRealName wrote:

The reason for their stance against cure is based entirely in anger, outrage and indignation at the way the world has treated them.

I don't think so, but the history of the treatement of people on the spectrum is awful.

ThisIsNotMyRealName wrote:

It's nothing to do with the loss of AS genius - which a load of utter baloney, IMHO.

Einstein and Newton would probably have been aborted if the screening instruments were available back then, alternatively, they would be living in group-homes after being singled out in the educational system and being deprived of a proper education.

rdos
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26 Dec 2008, 7:39 am

ThisIsNotMyRealName wrote:

But nor does it mean that curebies have to be banned from the forum on the scale that they are.
Ever wondered why you can't see whether members are banned here ?
It's so that you can't see the sheer number of curebies who are thrown off the forums (regardless of however polite and respectful they are).

Sound like fertile ground for a democratic debate to you ?

I'm not a moderator here, so I have no insight into whom is banned here, and for what reasons. But I don't think being pro-cure should be a ground for being banned, and if it is, I don't support such a policy. I'm for respectful discussions between Aspies and curebies. However, I think a better place for such discussions would be in some high-profile curebie organisation like Autism Speaks. Even better would be to include Aspies in these organisation's boards, as this would garantee active consideration for what both sides in the conflict have to say.

Besides, you are pro-cure, and not always so respectful, and you haven't been banned yet. :wink:

ThisIsNotMyRealName
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26 Dec 2008, 7:57 am

rdos wrote:

Why, were they profoundly, non-verbally Autistic then ?

70% of diagnosed Autistics are clinically mentally ret*d.

Even if you don't screen for Autism, wouldn't it be preferable to pharmaceutically unretard them ?
Do you think they'd be screaming for their AS rights to remain ret*d and opt not to take the very med that freed them from their retardation ?

Apart from which, neither Einstein nor Newton WERE AS.
Newton was head of the Royal Society, which is a height that few AS'ers would have been likely to achieve.
And Einstein had several mistresses - hardly a diagnostic characteristic of AS, wouldn't you agree ?

You have nowhere to go, RDOS.

Give it up and come over to the Light Side.

rdos
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26 Dec 2008, 8:20 am

ThisIsNotMyRealName wrote:

Why, were they profoundly, non-verbally Autistic then ?

70% of diagnosed Autistics are clinically mentally ret*d.

Perhaps, but a majority on the autism spectrum are not mentally ret*d. Additionally, the IQ tests are constructed to give people on the autism spectrum lower scores, because it measures some specific NT talents and doesn't include autistic intelligence. This has gotten worse as the IQ tests have "evolved".

ThisIsNotMyRealName wrote:

Even if you don't screen for Autism, wouldn't it be preferable to pharmaceutically unretard them ?

Impossible. There is currently no way to unretard mentally ret*d people.

ThisIsNotMyRealName wrote:

Do you think they'd be screaming for their AS rights to remain ret*d and opt not to take the very med that freed them from their retardation ?

Quite likely not, and if it didn't have significant side-effects, I'd be all for such treatments, but they do not exist, not even at the most rudimentary stage of development. The only effective treatment for mental retardation is when the prenatal test for Down syndrome is used for abortion.

ThisIsNotMyRealName wrote:

Apart from which, neither Einstein nor Newton WERE AS.

They both had the autistic personality-type, and surely were on the broader autism spectrum. I suspect the future prenatal tests will not be able to sort out people on the broader autism spectrum from those likely to be diagnosed as AS or Autism.

ThisIsNotMyRealName wrote:

Newton was head of the Royal Society, which is a height that few AS'ers would have been likely to achieve.

Why? The diagnostic criteria doesn't seem to exclude such a possibility? :wink:

ThisIsNotMyRealName wrote:

And Einstein had several mistresses - hardly a diagnostic characteristic of AS, wouldn't you agree ?

Hardly something that would exclude diagnosis either. Especially since he was male, and being single only seems to be a trait that give women AS diagnosis.

ThisIsNotMyRealName wrote:

You have nowhere to go, RDOS.

Give it up and come over to the Light Side.

What would be in it for me? 24/7 ABA until I retire? :wink:

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