First time in history!! !! The NT/AS open hotline ! !! !! !

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It will always appear at the top of the General Autism Discussion board... unless it becomes un-stickied.

Layers upon layers. This is the sort of double think that makes AS people wild with frustration but I think it's something like this:

White lies are an accepted way to avoid confrontation and give the veneer of politness. Neverthless, they are lies. And people who lie should be ashamed of themselves because we all should be honest. Except we shouldn't always be honest. Yes we should. No we shouldn't. AAAGGHHHHHH! Yes, these things are in conflict with each other. On the one hand, white lies save face for everyone and avoid conflict. On the other hand, they are still lies and therefore inherently shameful- although only mildly shameful. A person caught in a lie won't be hurt or suprised. They will be defensive or ashamed or some combination of the two (dismissive or angry are versions of defensive). But being hurt implies the OTHER person is in the wrong (you, in this case) and that's not an option when you've told a lie. And there's no point in being surprised because everybody who tells a lie will at some point be caught out so no suprise it happened.

How can something be both required and shameful if you are caught doing it? I have no idea. These two things are apparently in conflict. But that's the best I can do for an explanation.

A sticky situation topic

Congrats on the status of this stickied topic, Greentea.

A stickler for detail!

Maybe that is it. How tall? I am 6'2" and I don't hunch over even though most of my friends are nearly a foot shorter than me. Of course the main reason I don't hunch over when I am standing is because doing that makes my upper back, around my shoulder blades, hurt like h*ll when I do that. I do this also because its a good habit to have as a singer. I suspect though that the real reason that you hunch over may be more related to low muscle tone, after your discussion of yourself regarding that subject on the High Sensation Seeking thread.


I don't consider myself to be an INTJ expert based only upon hanging out for six months on an INTJ forum three years ago and a little interaction with a woman who is INTJ who thought I was gifted with an ability to explain an INFP friend to her in a way that actually made sense to her.

What do you need to know? I have read that INTJ's do not lack emotion, but rather their emotions are far more hyper-sensitive than even the emotionally sensitive HSP INFP folks, so they instinctively guard themselves against emotional overload, and thus the strong boundary. I don't know if that's true, but it sounds a lot like that theory about Aspies being guarded because of being too easily overwhelmed.

But that is not answering your question. I really don't have enough to go on yet.

I'm 6'3" and a bit. I talked to a friend who is a professional massage therapist, and when I brought up the hypotonia idea, he said that it was most likely because I was tall and not because of hypotonia. Who knows, though? I've always been a bit clumsy and I often enjoy sitting on my feet (it just feels more comfortable in many situations).



I guess my question is what you meant by "strong boundary." Do you mean it's difficult to get in, but if you are let in, you see the real person? I definitely have those tendencies, though I don't know if I'm INTJ. (The original quote, for someone else reading, wasn't referring to me; it was referring to sinsboldly).

Yes, basically that's it.


Yeah, your right. My oops.

Actually, I asked for it to be stickied, and Sinsboldly was prompt in doing so. This is such a worthwhile thread!

Thanks, Janissy, I do understand what you mean. You know, when someone tells you a white lie, if you're not very good at detecting when it's a white lie and when it isn't, you're too often misled - resulting in wasted resources such as your time, your money, your energy, your emotions, etc. So, because I'm not good at knowing if it's a white lie or not, what I do in order to find out is I call them on it (as in "John, that's not nice"). And if they're not offended or surprised, it means it indeed was a white lie.

Do NTs fall for white lies sometimes? What percentage of the time, if at all?

Oh sure, sometimes. But I think it's impossible to calculate a percentage or even estimate it. Consider this:

I tell a white lie. The person I tell it to appears to accept it. Did they fall for it or are they just going along with it to avoid a confrontation? I can't know either way.

Real life example: A man I didn't know and felt uncomfortable around was trying very hard to hit on me during a bus ride. He was making me very uncomfortable and I didn't want him to know my actual destination because he was making me feel creepily unsafe. So I chose a stop on the route that had a large store, said "that's my stop" and hopped off the bus and went into the store. Then I later came out and caught a different bus to continue my journey. Did he fall for that white lie? I'll never know. I spent the next couple months using a different bus route just so I wouldn't run into him. What if he got off the bus and kept following me around and finally confronted me with the white lie, saying "this isn't your stop, you're avoiding me". I wouldn't be hurt or surprised but I sure would have been defensive. "Ok! Yes! It's not my stop! But you're creeping me out and I don't want you talking to me." But that didn't happen so I'll never know if he fell for it or if he accepted it and thought to himself "oh well, her loss if she doesn't want to talk to me" or something.

Somebody else tells a white lie to me. But how do I know unless I find out later? Did that cute guy when I was in college really have too much homework to go to the party with me? Or did he just not want to go with me in particular. The only way to find out would be if I saw him there with somebody else. And I didn't. So I'll never know if he really spent the evening doing homework or going out with some other girl. I could have confronted him but it would have made things worse for me. If I said, "you don't have homework, you just don't want to go there with me" and he REALLY DID have homework, I'd look clingy and whiny and would have destroyed any future chance with him. If it was a white lie, he might admit that yes- he didn't want to go to the party with me- and then destroy my self esteem with a list of reasons why I am a terrible date. Lose-lose so I didn't investigate. (For the record, we never ultimately went out. It was a dead end.)

So it's just impossible to estimate the failure rate of white lies.

I know what you're getting at with this example, but there is this teeny little voice in my head that I can't keep quiet. So forgive me in advance.

This technically is not a lie, not even a white lie. It is your stop, assuming that you actually get off the train there. It may not be your preferred stop, but it is, by definition, your stop if you stop riding at that station. Is it misleading? Yes. Is it not telling the whole story? Yes! Is it a lie? No.

[edit]I just remembered a quote from I believe it was the Wheel of Time. Not a great book, but a nice saying: "She cannot lie, but she sure can make the truth do a fine jig." Not an exact quote.[/edit]

Janissy, I love your examples. You explain things so clearly!

How to tell someone they are too in your face and are overloading/invading you/making you anxious, without being insulting??

I can't exactly say to someone, 'You're too overbearing and emotional. Can you talk with a monotone please, and stand further away?'

Yes! I have that problem with a physical therapist that I see. She usually comes in to treat me after I have my acupuncture treatment. As I am lying there, mellowed out and feeling calm, she starts talking really loudly, laughing explosively, and generally ruining what therapeutic benefit I had. I have told her I am autistic, but short of saying, "Would you please stop talking, and just do my therapy?" What can I say? She is really a fine person, but having her come in loud like that, tenses me up unbearably.

Ha! That's a good one. I really wish I knew. I have this problem with my own family.

lol, sorry, but she probably assumes you ENJOY her talking, autistic or not. She's being "friendly." In the NT world, this is a GOOD thing. So I would say something like, "I appreciate how friendly and outgoing you are, but because I've just come from acupuncture, I am really in the mood for calm and quiet. Do you mind if we keep things as quiet as possible? I think I'd get more from our session that way. Is that OK?"

Last edited by DW_a_mom on 01 Aug 2009, 10:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Now THAT gets more difficult. If you are polite to a professional who is serving you, they will professionally yeild to your wishes. But family ... well, they may enjoy being overbearing, and then there is a valid question of whose pleasure outweighs whose. And no good way to push your preference over theirs without being rude. If you want them to understand how you prefer things, you can talk about a different situation, in generalities, and let them know that you have sensory issues with loud or animated conversation. Don't make it about them or the current situation. They'll eventually figure it out backwards, that it probably stresses you out when they do it, too.

The standing too close is easier; you discretely back away. In the NT world, people are supposed to "get" it when you do that, that they have invaded your personal space.