Is Aspergers trendy?

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Can't we just agree to disagree?

I explained the point about the list, they are not traits used to diagnose Aspergers (or Autism), they are traits that she has noticed are often seen in girls who have Autism. Personally I don't think that most typical (neurotypical) people will have a high percentage of these traits, but they certainly may have a few of them, which doesn't mean anything, just like even the traits used to actually diagnose Autism don't mean anything if taken separately, and/or a person has only 1 or 2 of them.

Also a diploma doesn't mean that a person knows everything, there is many psychologists who are not familiar with Aspergers (or Autism in general), and wouldn't even be able to diagnose someone properly. I don't know whether Rudy has scientific or scholarly background, but I appreciate her wisdom and knowledge about Aspergers, and she helps a lot of people. In fact I am pretty sure that she knows a lot more about Autism than many psychologists (who are not specialised in Aspergers/Autism diagnosis).

Yes, we can agree to disagree.

I actually do think that a lot of NT girls of a particular personality type would have a lot of those traits in the list (people that are kind-of sensitive and introverted, for example).

I didn't say people with diplomas know everything but she is not using the scientific method to support her claims, they aren't empirical. That's my only point about Rudy.

I think that many NT girls would fit the "female asperger" list.
I recommend that people don't use that list in relation to autism.

I disagree ... but then I already said this.

Again I repeat, this list is not meant to be used to diagnose Autism, and the traits taken separately are obviously not necessarily a sign of Autism, it is simply a list of traits that Rudy has noticed are very common among girls who have Aspergers/Autism, it doesn't exclude that some NT girls might have some of these traits (for example, of course a NT girl can be "musical and artistic"). Note also that some of them are not traits by themselves, but a comparison with male traits.

Being an introvert doesn't give you sensory issues.

Being an introvert doesn't mean that you don't take care of your hair.

Being an introvert doesn't make you immature, nor look younger.

Being an introvert doesn't make you less expressive in the face (here it is a comparison with male traits)

Being an introvert doesn't make you feel "androgynous" (i.e. she is not talking about a physical trait here, nor about sexual preference, but about a feeling about yourself)

Being an introvert doesn't get you diagnosed for Aspergers (I guess unless the psychologist is totally incompetent)

And so on ...

Contrary to you, I strongly suggest taking a look at this list, I think it is very interesting, and I think that while some NT girls certainly have some of the traits she mentions, most probably wouldn't have a very high percentage of these traits.

I didn't like the list because it was confusing.

I liked though that she was trying to humanize the face of autism and Aspergers. Because people often react to me as if because I seem a little small bit different, I am other than human.

I live the same life, same love and hate and frustration and satisfaction.

Just maybe feel things a few percent off from others, nothing to me, everything to them it sometimes seems.

So I am grateful for anything that makes me more accepted into this world in which I am still alive.

I know a lot of NT girls who would describe themselves as androgynous and say things like "I was such a tomboy as a kid", 'I'm just one of the guys", and "most of my friends are guys". This seems common. I also know a lot of people in general who look younger than they are. People being very concerned about fairness and justice and getting extremely angry when misunderstood is VERY VERY human and common.

Sensory issues would indicate something wrong (other conditions besides autism do also cause them) but some people might interpret normal levels of sensory sensitivity as sensory issues.

There is harm from false-positives, there is harm from false negatives. It is a matter of perspective which is worse but people can be harmed either way. One isnt worse than the other.

First I'm sorry because my message is pretty long, so it might be tedious to read it.

Again I repeat, this list is not meant to be used to diagnose Autism, and the traits taken separately are obviously not necessarily a sign of Autism, it is simply a list of traits that Rudy has noticed are very common among girls who have Aspergers/Autism, it doesn't mean that NT girls (and NT and AS boys as well) can't have some of these traits.

You think many NT girls would have a high percentage of the traits, and it's your right to believe so. I don't believe so. I think any NT girl would certainly have some of the traits, but not a very high percentage of them all together. Just like someone can have a few traits that are very typical of Autism, even the traits that are actually part of the reason for a diagnosis, but not be diagnosed with autism, it is when it adds up that it starts meaning something.

About the androgynous trait: yes absolutely some NT girls are like what you described, but I don't think that's exactly what Rudy meant. Getting along better with men is very common (and in some cases they think they get along better with men, but the men would tell you otherwise), it does not mean that all feel androgynous, and it doesn't mean that they are "manly", its just that some girls prefer the company of men, for different reasons, and the same is true for some men who prefer the company of women. For some, like one of my ex sisters-in-law, she looked up to her big brother (my ex husband) and liked hanging out with him and the boys, but she actually got along just fine with girls, she actually had many "girly" traits, and the boys didn't actually want her there with them. Some women prefer the company of men, but its it not because they are tom boys, they simply prefer men around them to manipulate and be admired, and are very competitive with other women. Others have been raised with many brothers and were the only girl in the family and were raised almost like a boy. Others are actually manly and feel more like a man than a woman. And so on, different reasons.

As to myself and this trait: I like the company of men in general (my first best friend was a boy), but I don't feel the need to do all the activities that men would do and to fit in as if I was a man myself, nor do I feel the need to do all the activities that women would do (some things that women do actually annoy the heck out of me, and I usually don't fit in with a group of women), I am not actually a tom boy, I am more like half a tom boy, and I've had best friends who were girls (one of them at my school and people thought we were lesbians, but we weren't). I am neither overly manly nor overly feminine. I don't fit in any of the society "molds", either girls or boys, I am neither. I someone makes a list of the typical men or the typical woman, I don't fit any of those lists, I have neither all the traits typical of men, nor the ones typical of women. I liked fishing, wrestling, and biking ... but I also liked playing with my Barbies and dolls. I don't know how to explain better. I am totally straight sexually tho, I like men (but she wasn't referring to sexual preference anyway, just about a feeling about yourself). The people I usually get along the best with are either men, or girls who are either "tom boys" or at least not overly sophisticated (can't stand that lol). If a girl wants to talk about make-up or clothes for an hour she better go talk to someone else lol ... unless we are talking about goth stuff because I like the goth culture in general, and in this case I like to point out which outfit or make-up I like, eventho I never actually wear make-up lol (I do put mascara on sometimes if I have to go to the store, but that's all I use).

Speaking of groups of women ... my ex sisters-in-law threw a shower for me a little while before I got married with their brother, they had invited my mother, aunts, a few girls I worked with and liked, etc ... well I just sat on my chair the whole time not knowing what to do or say, totally frozen (figuratively), it was terrible, I hated it. I know they had good intentions tho and they did that to be nice, but whew it was not a good idea in my case lol.

And also, yes of course some people look younger than others, and of course it doesn't mean they would be diagnosed with Autism. Like I said none of the traits taken separately, or even having a few of them, mean that the person is necessarily autistic. Its just that looking younger is VERY common among people who have Aspergers/Autism, more common than in the general population. And not only looking young, but having "young" traits of personality along with the appearance. Myself I am very mature in some ways (my parents always expected me to have adult reactions, even when I was very young, and my mother actually apologized for this a little bit before she died), and, for example, I never understood some stupid things that the other students would do at school, and would identify more with the teacher than the students. On the other hand I am also immature in other ways, and eventho I am now older than that, I still feel as if I was 16 in my head, I still like all the same things I liked at that age, and still have the same feelings I had then. I love online games (which also does not mean that a person is autistic!). When I talk with people online and they ask my age they are always very surprised when I tell them, they always thought I was much younger because of the way I express myself (eventho they can't see me). It is the same in person, people always think I am much younger than I am.

I also think that some people that I know are a little bit autistic, just not to where they would get diagnosed because they don't have significant, or severe, impairments. Autism is not a "black and white" condition, people have different "circuits" in their brain, some are severely affected, and some less affected, but their "circuits" are still not totally normal (i.e. what a scientist would describe a perfectly normal or healthy brain). That's why some people are "a little bit autistic" (i.e. some circuits in their brain that are not exactly normal), but would never be diagnosed with it, because they don't have significant impairments, but they still have impairments and/or traits typical of Autism. If they were to scan everyone here, no one would have the exact same circuits, nor the exact same circuits "on" or "off". I'm pretty sure, for example, that a scan of my brain wouldn't show near as many "circuits" towards imagery as Temple Grandin, but it would still show more than the average, normal, brain, because I do think a lot in images, just not as much as Temple, nor have I ever been unable to explain in words (which means that the "circuits" in my brain for verbal expression are probably more usual than hers). One day scientists will probably be able to identify all these circuits precisely (right now they have a general idea, they know which general area controls different things like speech, emotion, etc, but they don't know precise information about each "circuit").

Anyway like I said, I liked the list I think it is interesting, and I also liked the comparisons male/female traits in this list.

Anyway I better stop here because my message is beginning to look like a book ... you should see my comments on youtube lol, along with 2 or 3 people I have met there, we would probably compete for the longest youtube posts.

Note also that Rudy Simone's books are endorsed by people like Shana Nichols (PhD specialised in autism spectrum disorders), Tony Attwood, Temple Grandin.

I think a lot of BAPs, people with autistic or autistic-like traits but not autism would fit those traits.


Your description of androgyny I think is very common for girls. My sister and her friends are not really tom boys but just get along with boys more or like how they're more direct and like having guy friends. My sister played with cars and buy toys but also girl toys. *ETA- One of these NT girls actually did love fishing and biking and I think they played with dolls (my sister did anyway and with some of her friends).Still, she's said she was kind-of a tom-boy and in some little ways she was. She's very socially adroit and easily makes friends (always had work friends, school friends ect).

ETA- to be clear, I think some NT girls , maybe of a particular type would have a lot of these traits together, not just one or two. Some girls who actually do have ASD will fit the list and have other traits, symptoms and impairments too, I think. So, I'm not saying if you fit this list you don't have ASD but I think a lot of non-autistic people do too.

Last edited by daydreamer84 on 29 May 2014, 6:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Very well written post, I appreciate you taking the time to write all that out, and I agree with you.

Those traits are not meant to be taken separately as an indication of how to diagnose Aspergers or autism. It is more like a profile or composite.

It's kind of like when you read profiles for different personality types, some of the statements taken individually might seem like Barnum statements. But it's not meant to be taken that literally or specifically, it's a description of a type. It's meant to be added up together as a composite.

I'm really getting tired of repeating the same thing, so I will just quote myself, and hopefully it will be the end of this argument as well:

Again I repeat, this list is not meant to be used to diagnose Autism, and the traits taken separately are obviously not necessarily a sign of Autism, it is simply a list of traits that Rudy has noticed are very common among girls who have Aspergers/Autism, it doesn't mean that NT girls (and NT and AS boys as well) can't have some of these traits.

Thank you for taking the time to read my message! You understand the purpose of the list. And thank you for your kind words, I really, really needed this right now.

You don't have to keep arguing. You don't have to respond to all my posts of course, but of course you may. It's your choice. * I also don't mean any disrespect or insult toward you, I'm just stating my views and debating.

Some people might not understand the purpose of the list and might decide they have the disorder based on the list , hopefully not.

If the traits are just common in many people in the general pop without autism then it's not a good list of traits of girls with autism, IMO. She might have observed them in many girls with ASD because they are just common in girls in general and not specific to ASD.

Yes, I do have to answer your posts, I just can't help it lol. I really doubt anyone who comes here to discuss with us and believe they might have autistic traits based their whole opinion on this list. They would have to have been thinking of Autism to begin with to even look at this list, or to even come here. But even if this list was the only thing they had ever seen about autism, I fail to see how this could hurt them in any way, to the most they would have been wondering about their personality or issues to begin with, and they would likely be looking for information (more than just one list) about Autism before jumping to conclusions. And at this point they would either see a psychologist to get an official diagnosis, or they would come here (or other websites) to discuss and/or get more information about it.

Again it is not about each trait taken separately, its about traits that are commonly seen in girls who have Aspergers/Autism. And I don't agree with you that many NT girls would have a high percentage of the traits on this list. Even the traits that are actually used for a diagnostic, separately do not mean that a person would get diagnosed.

You don't like the list its your right. But I don't know why even mentioning this list has turned into some big argument about it, its just a list of traits that Rudy has noticed in many girls who have Autism, I liked the list, I thought it was interesting, and I simply wanted to share with others.

^
I know you mean the traits together and not separately and I think a lot of NTs would have a lot of those traits combined whereas they wouldn't meet the full diagnostic criteria for ASD.

Some people in other threads have thought they don't meet all the criteria but then say that they relate to the lists of traits of girls with ASD so I think some people might think that even though they don't fit the criteria , if they're girls especially and they meet these traits they could have it. I do not agree.

I think we (you and I) were arguing about self diagnosis or something else first, something somewhat similar but different but I was discussing these lists with others earlier in this thread. Also, I'm very argumentative.