Accepting Autism is Like a Traffic Jam
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BARF
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LeKiwi
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Autism runs in my family strongly, so there's already a good chance they'll have it. So if there's something that could potentially worsen their condition - ie make them low-functioning as opposed to high-functioning - then I'm going to avoid it like the plague.
Plus I just don't believe in them, because of all the other crap in them.
Or go to an old cemetary and see how many little kids died of diseases that are now preventable through immunisation.
It has actually happened in the US that a child died from a vaccine-preventable illness because the parents refused the vaccine due to autism fears. There have also been cases in the Third World of polio because the parents refused vaccines because they thought it was some sort of Western plot. vaccines are not perfect but they're better than the alternative. Maybe these people should talk to (I have) those that remember, for example, seeing smallpox patients, and the terror of contagion; smallpox has been erradicated precisely because of vaccines. The diseases vaccines are for are rare precisely because of vaccines.
The entire autism & vaccines scare comes from a discredited and retracted paper whose first author was working for trial lawyers seeking to sue big pharma and who has commiteed breaches of ethics. Somehow we're expected to believe that, while doctors (except those that get money from trial lawyers or from anti-vaccine advocates, of course) and big pharma are inherently corrupt, trial lawyers (obviously, those that get their money form big pharma are supposed to be the scum of the earth, while those that make their money by suing big pharma must be on the side of angels), alternative medicine practitioners, etc are incorruptible.
The majority of illness and death from 'vaccine-preventable illnesses' are in people who've been vaccinated these days, at least in the western world. Vaccination doesn't mean immunity.
Autism and vaccines comes not from a discredited paper (which was from a dodgy dealer, I know the history), but from the thousands upon thousands of mothers who report their kids changing within minutes of being vaccinated. He simply brought it to popular attention - shame he was a crook. This is why I believe it's different from 'true' autism - i.e. genetic autism you're born with, like most autistics, myself included - but instead vaccine-damage that mimics the symptoms. A lot of the ingredients have the potential to cause severe neurological damage in children who are susceptible, so given that autism is also a brain 'disorder' (I hate to use that word, someone throw a synonym at me) it isn't so implausible.
Also, most of the diseases we vaccinate against were on the decline naturally before the vaccines came into common use. The biggest theory on this - and most plausible - is simply that hygiene improved. Better understanding of germs and bacteria led to better hygiene practises in hospitals and in homes, and the diseases began to decline naturally. You can check statistics on this one, they aren't too hard to find.
As for big pharma being inherently corrupt - a patient healed is a customer lost, in an industry who make trillions a year and have control of not only the medical industry, but much of the cosmetics industry, personal care product manufacturers, govt bodies, FDA, most of the major food manufacturers... need I say more??
Doctors aren't inherently corrupt at all; I believe most have their hearts in the right place. It's just unfortunate that it takes so much to 'unbrainwash' someone, and that most of their studies are funded by Big Pharma, after which they're routinely wined and dined to promote new products. No wonder they don't see any other way.
Lawyers are lawyers - nuff said.
Not all alternative practioners are great, and they certainly aren't infallible by any means. I never said that. But the ones who are good, and who practise safely, efficiently, ethically, and properly are fantastic in a lot of practises. Alternative Practioner is such a broad term though, you really can't group them all together. For example, osteopaths are generally absolutely brilliant, governed by regulatory bodies, use methods scientifically proven, and are accepted - by the general public, medical establishment, and other alternative practioners - as a fantastic way of healing the body. I've had amazing success for injuries with them, and seen people healed by them after being told that they'd need invasive and dangerous medical operations. A far cry from, say, palmists and tarot card healers.
You can't put them all in the one box and dismiss them as rubbish.
Pandora - if my kids get measles, I doubt it would be because they've not been vaccinated. It'd be because they got it, same as anyone who's been vaccinated can get it. I'm not denying the diseases are horrible for the most part - though I cannot believe they have a vaccination for chicken pox; my kids will be getting that naturally just like they should do! - because they are. Just because I'm not going to vaccinate them doesn't mean I'm not going to look after them; they'll be fed on a diet primarily of fresh, organic, local vegetables and fruit, with plenty of wild oily fish and occasional organic, free-range, grass-fed red meat. There'll be lots of Vitamin C, raw organic garlic, echinacea, green veges, and Omega 3 fish oil and probiotics around... things that naturally boost your immunity.
Anyway, this shouldn't be a problem, should it? You don't need to worry about whether or not my kids get jabbed. I mean, you're all immunised so you won't get the diseases anyway and neither will your immunised kids!!
Right?
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We are a fever, we are a fever, we ain't born typical...
Yes, people who have been vaccinated can still get the illness, but it's massively less likely than in those who have not been vaccinated. It means relative immunity, not absolute immunity. Mini-epidemics of these diseases only happen when a substantial proportion of people are not vaccinated, they don't happen where virtually everyone has been vaccinated. Hygiene will in and of itself make these diseases less common, but vaccines have an effect demonstrably beyond that.
Autism (for vaccinated and unvaccinated children) is often first noticed more or less at the same age childhood vaccines are usually given. In some cases, it will be noticed relatively soon after vaccination, and some people will take it to mean cause-and effect. The word hysteria comes to mind. There are plenty of epidemiological studies showing that there is no correlation between autism and vaccines.
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LeKiwi
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And there are plenty of mothers who will tell you their children were jabbed, started screaming an unusual, high-pitched scream, and didn't stop for a week. After that they regressed into full-blown autism.
...Does that sound like any of you? I don't know one autistic whose regression involved anything resembling that. In fact, I for one didn't even HAVE a 'regression' period, and none of the aspies I know did either... it was something that was always there. Hence why I say I believe it's vaccine-damage that resembles autism, as opposed to true autism.
Can you find me some stats that aren't industry-funded (ie totally independent) to show that epidemics are more likely in places where autism rates are low?
Again, I don't see why it's such a concern to you what I do with my children. If you're immunised and your kids are too you have nothing to worry about.
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We are a fever, we are a fever, we ain't born typical...
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BARF
Sadly, Zara, so have I.
I did go over and check out the blog you recommend. Today's topic is "this colonoscopy risk consent form" which subject I have cursory knowledge on, at best. I've heard of this blogger, though. I'll keep an eye on it. Any other interesting blogs I should know about?
...Does that sound like any of you? I don't know one autistic whose regression involved anything resembling that. In fact, I for one didn't even HAVE a 'regression' period, and none of the aspies I know did either... it was something that was always there. Hence why I say I believe it's vaccine-damage that resembles autism, as opposed to true autism.
I don't know about y'all, but my mother tells stories about me when I got my shots, and they go like this:
I have uber tiny veins as a result of having spider veins, and that makes them hard to stick with a needle. And that's NOW. So think about when I was a littlin'. Apparently the nurse lady jabbed and poked me about a hundred times before she finally got it in. Did I cry? No. Did I say a word? No.
But at the end, when we were in the hallway and I was walking down the hallway with my mother, I turned to her and said through gritted teeth, "That hurt. A lot."
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LeKiwi
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As well, the only fatality of Chelation therapy for Autism was an incident involving mistakes on the part of the practitioner. It was the doctor's mistake.
Yes, it was performed by a DAN doctor who has a history of medical malpractice, yet still denies any wrongdoing.
Chelation therapy has killed others, though.
Including the one already mentioned, three people have been killed by it since 2005. No doubt it has killed others before that.
Can I just point out that medical mistakes and malpractises are the leading cause of death in America, and will be globally within the next 3 or 4 years (some estimates put it at the next year)?
Also, doctors sugeries and hospitals are one of the most germ-laden environments you'll ever go to.
Let alone the gunk they put in the majority of big pharma drugs.
...you want to get sick, go to the doctor.
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...Does that sound like any of you? I don't know one autistic whose regression involved anything resembling that. In fact, I for one didn't even HAVE a 'regression' period, and none of the aspies I know did either... it was something that was always there. Hence why I say I believe it's vaccine-damage that resembles autism, as opposed to true autism.
I had two periods of so-called 'regression' (which I think is more complex than simply 'regressing into autism', and would like to note that normal NT development involves loss of skills at times, in order to gain others, but it's considered normal and not considered a regression).
However, I was autistic before both such periods, and there was no particular coinciding of a vaccine with either of them. And my brother is autistic (identifies with AS and believes it to be separate from autism, though) and has no 'regressions', although he did have the nonstop screaming in infancy (not in response to vaccines, just in response to just about everything). So it clearly runs in my family.
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LeKiwi
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...Does that sound like any of you? I don't know one autistic whose regression involved anything resembling that. In fact, I for one didn't even HAVE a 'regression' period, and none of the aspies I know did either... it was something that was always there. Hence why I say I believe it's vaccine-damage that resembles autism, as opposed to true autism.
I don't know about y'all, but my mother tells stories about me when I got my shots, and they go like this:
I have uber tiny veins as a result of having spider veins, and that makes them hard to stick with a needle. And that's NOW. So think about when I was a littlin'. Apparently the nurse lady jabbed and poked me about a hundred times before she finally got it in. Did I cry? No. Did I say a word? No.
But at the end, when we were in the hallway and I was walking down the hallway with my mother, I turned to her and said through gritted teeth, "That hurt. A lot."
Ditto to me. I thought they hurt, but I'd never say anything because I was told they were good for me and I needed them. And the bribe of a lollipop always helped.
Put it this way... I'd cry, and if I knew they were coming I'd get upset, but there was never anything resembling a high-pitched wail followed by regression into autism or asperger's. That was something I was born with; these mothers whose kids have done that are screaming out that that is NOT the case with their kids - the vaccines changed everything. If only big pharma didn't have a monopoly on the world and their cries would be heard and taken seriously.
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LeKiwi
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...Does that sound like any of you? I don't know one autistic whose regression involved anything resembling that. In fact, I for one didn't even HAVE a 'regression' period, and none of the aspies I know did either... it was something that was always there. Hence why I say I believe it's vaccine-damage that resembles autism, as opposed to true autism.
I had two periods of so-called 'regression' (which I think is more complex than simply 'regressing into autism', and would like to note that normal NT development involves loss of skills at times, in order to gain others, but it's considered normal and not considered a regression).
However, I was autistic before both such periods, and there was no particular coinciding of a vaccine with either of them. And my brother is autistic (identifies with AS and believes it to be separate from autism, though) and has no 'regressions', although he did have the nonstop screaming in infancy (not in response to vaccines, just in response to just about everything). So it clearly runs in my family.
Exactly. It runs in my family too - I'm affected and both my brothers are on the spectrum or have similar 'disorders'. We've all always had it though - none of us (well, perhaps my younger brother, who is on the spectrum but not enough to be 'properly' AS) were normal kids, even as babies and toddlers. Everyone has regressions, but they don't suddenly change from being a bubbly, talkative, won't-sit-still-running-around-exploring, happy, normal 2 year old with no history of anything resembling it to a quiet, unresponsive child with no speech and a host of associated health problems literally overnight, following a vaccine of toxic chemicals with the potential for serious neurological damage that was followed by a strange, high-pitched scream.
Hence why I believe there is a difference between hereditary, normal autism/AS and vaccine-induced 'autism'.
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We are a fever, we are a fever, we ain't born typical...
Hence why I believe there is a difference between hereditary, normal autism/AS and vaccine-induced 'autism'.
Well... except for the fact that:
1. There are hereditary conditions (such as Rett syndrome) that really do look that way, and that often go undiagnosed (I know several adult women with Rett who only found out when their children had it, and both have the gene for it).
2. There have been times where they did video analysis of the so-called "normal" children who then "regressed", and found obvious signs of autism in those people too. One of the big cases that went through the major vaccine trial in the USA recently, worked exactly like that, they claimed she'd gone from "totally normal" to "autistic", but they looked at videos of her when she was supposedly "totally normal", and she wasn't even close to it.
3. They did one interesting study (wish I had the cite in front of me) where they found that on a number of factors, when rated from 1 (shows very little of this factor) to 3 (shows a whole lot of this factor), autistic children were more often either 1 or 3 than 2. So in some cases it might be that a kid who was a 1 on a certain factor, suddenly became 3 on that factor due to some sort of event that might have nothing to do with vaccines, so it'd look like an enormous change, but still be well within the range of what autistic people are like (and in fact very typical of autistic people).
4. This sort of thing, the apparent "dramatic transformation", has existed a long time. In the past, people used to blame a particular traumatic event for a person "withdrawing into their autistic world". Before that, they used to blame demons or fairies that came along and stole a normal quiet child (note that extreme quietness can in itself be a sign of autism), replacing that child with a child who never stopped screaming (another thing that can be a sign of autism). People have for a long time, probably for centuries, scrambled to blame some event that happened to coincide with the age that autism becomes the most obvious. Vaccines are only one of the many things that happen to coincide with that age bracket.
It's not that I don't think vaccine injury exists -- I know people who've experienced it, and the people who give me my flu shot warn me about it every year and tell me what to look for -- I just don't think it causes something that looks like autism, and so many things that happen during that age range have been blamed for it, that I'd have to see more than just one more thing to blame, to believe that that's the actual cause.
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LeKiwi
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But why shouldn't it?
I mean, I don't understand all this denial of there even being a possibility. The numbers are simply too high to dismiss as irrational, and when you look at exactly what they put in vaccines, and the effects that all of them can have on the body alone - let alone together - it isn't exactly difficult to imagine, is it?
I'm not an irrational hippie with a pathological fear of needles or love of wearing kaftans and holding hands around trees. I donate blood every 3 months; needles have never been an issue for me. I do admittedly use natural/organic cleaning products etc, but that's more because I tend to react to most of the chemicals in standard products and don't see the point in putting them into our faltering environment when there are perfectly good alternatives.
I'm a science freak, and one of my 'special interests' (I love that term) is health and alternative medicine - healthy eating, healthy living. I've done A LOT of research into this from both sides of the argument, and the facts that they are dangerous and the chemicals used are extremely toxic with the potential to do the harm that these parents are speaking of, simply outweigh anything saying the opposite (most of which are studies funded by big pharma or people with vested interests).
You can say that the Wakefield study has been dismissed as he was a crook - which is true - but people forget the reason why he was doing that study in the first place; the hundreds of thousands of people who report their children regressing into autism immediately following vaccination. He didn't just decide to look into it - there was a reason.
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BARF
I know
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Legally, every member of this forum can sue him for slander and libel now.
I knew that would be coming the minute he found out he was banned from here. Like a spoilt brat - if he doesn't get his way he whines about it on his blog.
Every time - without fail!
I've got a blog where I mirror some of his postings and reverse it back onto him and his friends.
http://lovingautism2.blogspot.com
The two posts there are reversals of the following Foresam entries;
Neurodiversity Stabs Autistic Boy in the Eyes
and another one which he has deleted the original about the Omaha shootings.
And I'll be doing another mirroring this one when I have a chance. I'll probably get time today as I am getting over a cold that has knocked me about all week - and the weather is not good and the local cricket may be cancelled today anyway.
LeKiwi
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cdarwin
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