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Grace09
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09 Sep 2009, 10:32 pm

GreatCeleryStalk wrote:
I can generally manage better/more appropriate eye contact than my friend with AS, although our impairment with non-verbal behavior is similar; I sometimes have a little more social intuition than he does.

Socially my stepson is in no-mans land. I mean, I don't know. I really don't think he's AS because they seem to be good at things like math and science. The NVLD fits, but he is not, like I dunno, the NVLD types here so beyond where he is. I think, if I have to guess and I have to guess because there's no way my husband (his dad) will have an assessments that isn't required, is that he has NVLD and HFA. Unless the school requires more assessments he won't get another diagnosis other than NVLD. A psychologist gave him a standardized test which showed the difference in the PIQ and the VIQ. It can't assess the way he stands really close (sometimes on my toes) or the volume of his voice, you know? It can't test that his conversations go one way and are obsessively about object, etc. I am grateful he got the diagnosis of NVLD because I had come to the conclusion he had something like AS and my husband told me I was nuts.

It's interesting, someone said it will be in the next DSM? Can a psychologist diagnose AS or HFA or does it need to be a psychiatrist? I know it's not a mental illness but I read somewhere it needs to be evaluated from a psychiatric history?



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14 Sep 2009, 3:19 pm

Grace09 wrote:
It's interesting, someone said it will be in the next DSM? Can a psychologist diagnose AS or HFA or does it need to be a psychiatrist? I know it's not a mental illness but I read somewhere it needs to be evaluated from a psychiatric history?


Psychologists (e.g. PhD or PsyD holders) can diagnose AS, HFA, LFA, NVLD, and a myriad number of other mental health conditions. The major practical difference (because there are a ton of philosophical ones) is that psychiatrists are medical doctors and can prescribe. Many psychiatrists refer to a psychologist for diagnosis.

The only reason I am cautious about NLD is that it generally is not diagnosed unless there's a record of brain damage in the past. Not everybody with AS is good with math, either, but it's somewhat common.

The IQ test indicating a disparity between PIQ/VIQ could be indicative of either AS or NVLD. HFA is excluded as a diagnosis (per DSM-IV-TR) if there is not a delay in language acquisition/speech.

The object obsession is indicative of AS more than NLD. IIRC NLD and obsessions are not very common.

The psychologist who met with your son should have also asked questions when doing the client history/qualitative part of the evaluation. I find it very odd that the psychologist did not ask you, or the child's father, about his mannerisms, patterns of interaction, or host of other issues.

NVLD may indeed be in the next DSM, but I don't know for certain. I think it has become notable and distinct enough from AS/HFA that it will be included. I don't know that it will be classified as an ASD, though.



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17 Sep 2009, 9:43 am

I was not especially glad to find out about my NLD-like neurological problems, permanent and irreversible (it seems so far), a disability. I liked myself better as an eccentric rather than a disabled individual.

NLD information is very interesting but I have yet to find out why every aspect of my memory is troublesome.

I swear I'd love to have at least an average long-term memory. I don't know if things have gone worse or not, but I've come to realize the depth of the problem and have started noting down important stuff, things to do, ideas. I can remember so little of my life compared to people I know (and the thing is I encounter many gifted individuals with excellent memories, and I feel bad trying to explain that I'm just not like them), it can be very frustrating at times. It's not uncommon for people to think it's all BS and I'm claiming to have a poor memory to avoid dealing with my past lol. :lol:

Ok, I'm planning to see a neurologist. I don't believe psychologists, psychiatrists could be of any help. I'm in need of concrete answers, I'm in need of hard science, to know what my brain looks like, what's wrong with it etc. I've got the DSM-IV already and have read enough psychology.



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17 Sep 2009, 12:01 pm

A regular psychologist or psychiatrist should never diagnose NLD. NLD while it has behavioral aspects, should not be diagnosed on those aspects (if it is solely behavioral, its probably AS or another form of atypical autism. )

NLD should only be diagnosed by neurologists or neuropsychs. A BIG problem right now is Psychologists and psychiatrists are diagnosing many girls with NLD on behavioral symptoms, when its really the female manifestation of AS.



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28 Oct 2009, 11:08 pm

starygrrl wrote:

NLD should only be diagnosed by neurologists or neuropsychs. A BIG problem right now is Psychologists and psychiatrists are diagnosing many girls with NLD on behavioral symptoms, when its really the female manifestation of AS.


I was diagnosed with NLD about a year ago but for a long time and still now I feel that I have Aspergers. It is interesting that you write this because I wondering if this is the case with me and if I should get a second opinion especially after reading information on girls with Aspergers.



Grace09
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29 Oct 2009, 10:40 am

GreatCeleryStalk wrote:
Grace09 wrote:
It's interesting, someone said it will be in the next DSM? Can a psychologist diagnose AS or HFA or does it need to be a psychiatrist? I know it's not a mental illness but I read somewhere it needs to be evaluated from a psychiatric history?


The IQ test indicating a disparity between PIQ/VIQ could be indicative of either AS or NVLD. HFA is excluded as a diagnosis (per DSM-IV-TR) if there is not a delay in language acquisition/speech.

The object obsession is indicative of AS more than NLD. IIRC NLD and obsessions are not very common.

The psychologist who met with your son should have also asked questions when doing the client history/qualitative part of the evaluation. I find it very odd that the psychologist did not ask you, or the child's father, about his mannerisms, patterns of interaction, or host of other issues.

NVLD may indeed be in the next DSM, but I don't know for certain. I think it has become notable and distinct enough from AS/HFA that it will be included. I don't know that it will be classified as an ASD, though.


He did have a speech delay, he didn't speak until he was 4 years old. His dad, my husband, says it was because of ear infections which I think is a bit reaching because lots of toddlers have ear infections but they still talk. He was going on and on yesterday about some cable he wanted, cables are one of his obsessions. My 2 other kids were singing 'so what' by Pink. I don't know what will happen because he's 13 now and he just acts so different from other kids, he could care less about music and pop culture like most kids his age. As a result, he hasn't made any friends after 2 months at a new school.

The middle school did another evaluation about 2 weeks ago so who knows what the results will be from that. As far as the psychologist not asking about certain things, well she gave both parents a questionnaire and I saw it and it's kind of hard for the psychologist to look for things when the parents are saying he is just a regular kid and he has never had any troubles. He has been in special ed from the beginning, he has serious social problems. He has 2 friends, mom and dad, but his parents aren't going to admit that. The evaluation was only something they HAD to do for school placement. All they want to hear is there is nothing there. It's going to take a very observant psychologist to identify his problems I think.

His new school is demanding more of him so I am just hoping he can catch up as his parents want to mainstream him in 2 years. Maybe going into public school will be the best thing to happen to him. These private schools, in my opinion, haven't been very effective. I have read a lot of posts here and I'm starting to feel the public schools may have more experience with these things. Time will tell...



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29 Oct 2009, 10:32 pm

GreatCeleryStalk wrote:
Luluchan531 wrote:
@ Grace09: Actually yes. 80% of those with AS have symptoms of NLD so it's entirely possible that your son could have both.


It's more likely that 80% of NLD diagnoses have AS as a comorbid. NLD generally requires some form of right hemisphere brain damage/white matter malformation in order for diagnosis to occur. The diagnostic criteria for the two disorders are very similar and they share some major traits, but are very, very different.

An example:

My visual-spatial memory is absolutely rubbish (I have NLD). My friend with AS has an excellent visual-spatial memory. He rarely gets lost, excellent sense of direction, etc. I can get lost in classroom or a parking lot very easily.

I can generally manage better/more appropriate eye contact than my friend with AS, although our impairment with non-verbal behavior is similar; I sometimes have a little more social intuition than he does.


According to Rourke, it doesn't go the other way around:

" Many students of AS and NLD seem to think that they are one and the same. Of course, they are not. Reflections on the relevant sections above and the NLD and Neurological Disease section will show this assertion of identity to be absurd.

Perhaps a little example from Aristotle’s Logic will be of assistance within this context. Consider the following non-sequitur:

All apples are fruit.
Therefore, all fruit are apples.

Applied to the current considerations:

All persons with AS exhibit NLD.
Therefore, all persons with NLD have AS.

I rest my case."

http://www.nld-bprourke.ca/BPRA41.html

About 80% of people with AS have NLD but I don't know the exact co-morbidy between NLD and AS.

BTW I found (on the same page) that those with HFA can't have NLD...again according to Rourke.



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30 Oct 2009, 7:26 am

Luluchan531 wrote:
About 80% of people with AS have NLD


That's impossible, since NLD causes severe impairment in the areas that Aspies are best known for, such as Maths, Science, etc. NLDers are strong in verbal/language areas, which is opposite to the AS stereotype.


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30 Oct 2009, 9:05 am

Greentea wrote:
Luluchan531 wrote:
About 80% of people with AS have NLD


That's impossible, since NLD causes severe impairment in the areas that Aspies are best known for, such as Maths, Science, etc. NLDers are strong in verbal/language areas, which is opposite to the AS stereotype.


Ah that's interesting. That's kinda like me. I thought aspies could be strong with verbal/language or mathematics.

PS. hmmm looking at the wikipedia of NLD, there's no mention of obsessive interests.



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10 Nov 2009, 10:43 pm

IMForeman wrote:
PS. hmmm looking at the wikipedia of NLD, there's no mention of obsessive interests.


When I was dx'ed with NLD, they ruled out AS because I didn't have a single, long-term obsession (although I go through short-term obsessions). However, I've read multiple books by parents of kids with NLD, and the kids often have a really obvious special interest- and Byron Rourke actually wrote the introduction to one of these books, so I'm not really sure what to think.

Plus, even though my interests were short-lived, they were certainly unusual. For instance, when I was 14 and my family was going on a trip to Yellowstone National Park, I can remember copying out lists of country names and capitals to *bring with me* on the trip since I was currently obsessed with memorizing country capitals. Even though it only lasted a few weeks, you can't tell me that obsession (and many similar ones) was normal. Maybe NLD obsessions just aren't as consistently all-consuming as Aspie ones. When I am going through an obsessive period though, I will spent 14 hours a day if allowed just working on things related to the obsession. It's all I think about and it's all I want to talk about.


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21 Nov 2009, 8:09 pm

I have been diagnosed with both NLD and AS and am now going to get REEvaluated again because mom needs it for the insurance. She also remebered some thing about me she never mentioned in my past evaluations so I am a bit ......anxeous? I believe is the right word.

I have a complex medical history of hospitalizations and siezures from birth. I grew out of my siezures though.

I had heart surgery at though this isnt important

As a child I was VERY texture sencitive couldnt even deal with having the seems in my socks touch my toes. I am still texture and sound and smell and taste sencitive today.

I have ALWAyS had an obessions that I obsessed over 24/7

I am terrible with eye contact and non verbal body language
I am bad at math
I have visual and specail imparement as well though this is odd because as far back as I can remeber I have alwys been good at looking at a picture and assembling the odject. I am also really good about finding my way around and have always been the one to remeber things like where we parked the car. I find my way by vissual memorey and often times if you ask me "how do I get to the pet store," I tend to pause then give directions like" go straight till you see the brick building next to the water fountain with the bricks half missing and crumbled on top then keep going straight tilll about the secound set of bike racks turn left look left there iss the door," I am 22 and just learning the names of streets and such where I live lol

I had ALOT of trouble making friends as a kid but I didnt really care for friends eithr till 6th grade.
mom said she tried to get me involved with things like ballet to help me make friends but I just wasnt connecting at all instead I crawled in the corner and barked at the other kids

Now I have a few friends but I owe most of that to my White SV comformation German Shepherd Nimrodel.

Iperfered to play alone as a kid

I am now quiet verbal but often trip up on my words

I was called hyper active as a kid
Mom said I dont have a scence of boundries or any real scence of danger

I stimmed alot as a kid and till stim today.

I am very pick about how my food is cooked and when we go out I only eat certain foods at certain places

I am a very sl;ow reader though I love a good book as long as I dont get frustrated with my own slow reading.

I am very good with hands on things and in science too.

I traind my dog agilty using every day iteams to make up the obstical course.

I have ALWAYS gotten along better with animals thenm people.

I am a concreate think but over the years have learned to inturpet some sayings though as a kid I rember them telling me I could be what ever I wanted when I grew up ANYTHING at all so during my kindergarten graduation when they asked me I stood up and prodly said " I am going to be a dog or a cat," :oops: :lol:

I am also very un organized as I am sure you can see here.

Oh and I cant handle changes wel at all

and I still have melt downs :oops:

I have routines around how I dress shower eat and do things like puzzles.

Another thing as a kid was that I loved to take things apart and put them back togeather. Though my maine victums were flash lights. Though anything with a spring never got put back to geather I ran off with the spring.

I also had self help deficits like tying my shoes

poor motor skills

and was in alot of speach therapey.

Any one have any thoughts? Any clues which it might be? A friend of mine said it sounds like I could have both or more likly I hav pdd-nos? though I am not sure about that



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28 Nov 2009, 11:15 pm

So which did you turn out to be??

A dog or a cat?

:wink:

That was just a joke.

It's anybody's guess how you might be diagnosed. All the things that you say sound like AS to me.

Best of luck.

(P.S. My best friends have always been dogs, too.)



Last edited by GrandFunk on 29 Nov 2009, 12:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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28 Nov 2009, 11:51 pm

starygrrl wrote:
A regular psychologist or psychiatrist should never diagnose NLD. NLD while it has behavioral aspects, should not be diagnosed on those aspects (if it is solely behavioral, its probably AS or another form of atypical autism. )

NLD should only be diagnosed by neurologists or neuropsychs. A BIG problem right now is Psychologists and psychiatrists are diagnosing many girls with NLD on behavioral symptoms, when its really the female manifestation of AS.


Can you explain that a little?

I'm a man in my 60s and a few years ago was diagnosed with NLD and ADD by a psychologist who did some pretty exhaustive testing.

He said I definitely do not have Asperger (I had come in to be tested because I thought I probably had Asperger).

So please explain your statement and tell me if you think it applies to me?

Thanks.



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29 Nov 2009, 12:17 am

twinky333 wrote:
I have NLD and I inherited it from my dad. I have two children and one grandchild with NLD, one grandchild who is NT and one grandchild who has Classic Autism. People who have NLD have very poor visual recall, my daughter has no viual recall and all memories and thoughts are in words. I have very limited visual recall. I have to make an effort to see pictures in my mind and they are very blurry like snapshots coming from a dark mist. I never have a visual video or movie in my head, not for memories, day dreaming or planning. I do not see the lay out of a grocery store or the features of a person's face. I have the normal range of emotions and empathy. Most of the time I know what is going on socially but social behavior is based on memory not instinct. People with NLD do not have special intrest and in fact may suffer from a lack of this but they are very sensitive to the way they are treated by other people. They are often shunned and do not know why, after so much hurt most develop social anxiety. I think that young girls tend to become very quiet and teenage boys will often become aggressive as a survival skill because of being picked on.
One problem with NLD is slow visual and auditory processing so that I can't keep up with the conversation. I don't comprehend the social game. I see everybody as equals, think everyone should play by the same rules and have no concept of the box. I have learned to live within the box most of the time only because of the problems that come if you don't.
I do not have the same values as " the regular people " there is a huge difference. I value individuality, I do not want to be like everybody else or act like them, I don't need the groups approval, I am happy with just a few close friends and even then I don't seek their approval of the way I look or think. This material world just doesn't matter so much to me, I have a strong spiritual sense that guides me.
My strong desire for justice and fairness have caused me a lot of difficulty but I like the way that I am, I am content with myself. I first learned about NLD two years ago, up until then I thought I just had inherted some strange personality traits and a double dose of bad luck. I am glad I found out that there was a reason for some of the problems that I have had and to be aware that I am differant so that I can protect myself better.I am glad my kids can know that too because it's a tough world out there. The biggest disadvantage is not to be aware that you have one because some people know it right away and take advantage of that. ( stay away from used car salesmen )
I am glad not to be NT if it means being shallow and superficial, just giving lip service to certian values and to always live closed up inside that awful box never seeing the beauty outside. Still I wish that I could be NT for just one day so that I could know what is so great about playing the game and see their BIG PICTURE and compare it to mine.


I can so relate to this that I could have written it myself......right down to the family members with NLD.

Starrygirl disagreed with you on the audio processing, but I have the same problem.

I wonder if you, like myself, might also have ADD? That would account for the problems with audio processing that Starrygirl felt compelled to criticize.

She's probably correct, but there would probably be an explanation like undiagnosed ADD.

Well, thanks for writing that, anyway......made me feel that there are others like me around.



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02 Dec 2009, 7:59 pm

Do people with NLD stim?



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03 Dec 2009, 3:36 am

GrandFunk wrote:
starygrrl wrote:
A regular psychologist or psychiatrist should never diagnose NLD. NLD while it has behavioral aspects, should not be diagnosed on those aspects (if it is solely behavioral, its probably AS or another form of atypical autism. )

NLD should only be diagnosed by neurologists or neuropsychs. A BIG problem right now is Psychologists and psychiatrists are diagnosing many girls with NLD on behavioral symptoms, when its really the female manifestation of AS.


Can you explain that a little?

I'm a man in my 60s and a few years ago was diagnosed with NLD and ADD by a psychologist who did some pretty exhaustive testing.

He said I definitely do not have Asperger (I had come in to be tested because I thought I probably had Asperger).

So please explain your statement and tell me if you think it applies to me?

Thanks.


NLD is hypothesized to occur due to brain damage or malformation of certain parts of the brain; a neurological examination can be very helpful in diagnosing NLD. I don't know that I would say that a qualified psychologist should not diagnose it; if you're displaying the signs of NLD and not the signs of AS, it's reasonable for a psychologist to make a diagnosis.