NTs DO THINGS with conversation...

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The game is hard for NTs too. They too are constantly trying to improve at it, and berate themselves when they fail. It's about not exposing your cards, sometimes - where it suits you - only hinting at your cards, and getting better and better at deciphering what cards the other may be holding. It's about the competition for influence on others, the latter being one of the most precious assets a human can have, symbolized often by money.

And I, foolishly, always thought I was doing the right thing by laying my cards out on the table. Basically it is a huge game where people try to have power and influence over each other by withholding information. That's why communicating to share information puts us at a disadvantage. It's like you are playing by the rules of solitaire while everyone else is playing poker.

Intent is the single biggest clue. This is where Theory of Mind comes in. Theory of Mind is more or less an algorithm for guessing the other person's intent. Part of it is personal projection ("what would I mean by that sentence?") which works pretty poorly in AS/NT conversations but also breaks down when people have theoretically similar neurology but have other differences in experience and personality. The other part is culture and accumulated experience (an example being "let's get together sometime" which you learn by experience means "let's not"). It is very fuzzy and bears a resemblance to weather prediction in that it has some degree of accuracy in known systems but is also sometimes catastrophically wrong. But not wrong often enough for people to abandon it altogether.

Every time you say something, people will wonder why you said it. The tricky part is that their guess is unlikely to be literal unless there is an overriding reason for it to be literal. This seems to be a giant sore spot between AS and NT people per the many threads. Taking something literally is so alien to NTs that it is likely to be a last guess that they arrive at only if have learned from experience that you are somebody who literally never says something that has another meaning. And sometimes not even then. Since my daughter is autistic, I have learned to stifle the "what does that really mean" reflex and take her literally. But it is the stifling of a reflex and requires consciously removing the instant interpretation that my brain came up with. When one person automatically always comes up with a subtext and the other person never does, miscommunication is inevitable.

I wish I knew a way around this conundrum but I don't. These two nearly incompatible systems are hardwired.

Not just withholding information, but using information to their advantage (i.e. to fulfill their needs and desires). As I always say, what aspies lack completely and is unfortunately the one key to success in this world is knowing what to say to whom, when and how - these 4 encompass: content, empathy, timing, method. Empathy is the component that lets you intuit what will work with this specific person at this precise moment of his mental state.

Now, to be fair, I won't hide in the "grapes are sour" attitude. I believe that if I had this ability to manipulate others, I would use it, and I would try to become better at it and I'd probably take pride in beating others at the game and improving my socioeconomic situation as a result. I believe so because when we were little, before ToM was developed in NT kids, I enjoyed having a following, being popular and manipulating others' psyches to my advantage just like any NT.

The analogy to solitaire vs. poker is wonderful, by the way!

Last edited by Moondust on 18 Feb 2014, 1:53 am, edited 2 times in total.

Maybe this thread should be stickied, not because I started it, but because the insight in it has the validation of an NT, showing the insight is accurate and safe and therefore useful for aspies to learn...

Janissy, what does "let's get together sometime" mean? My interpretation, which took me only 5 decades of keen observation and analysis to reach, is that people say it to make the listener feel there's potential for active relationship (at some vague point in the future), therefore the listener won't talk negatively about the speaker behind their backs or be unnice if their paths cross again. A measure of damage control, in no way an indication of the speaker's positive or negative regard for the listener. Chances are that regard is not very positive, otherwise the speaker wouldn't just dish a cliche.

This thread is fascinating, confusing and quite disturbing...

Some questions:
1. How do you know what NTs mean to say, when what they say is not what they mean?
2. Does the above apply to both verbal and written communication?
3. Is there a secret handshake Aspies can use to learn NT-speak? LOL.



I suppose the good news is that I love spider solitaire. LOL.

I do it too!! ! So interesting! Now I know why saying those things are unusual.
For instance if someone says they didn't have breakfast the day, I answer like: I read a research that says 40% of Brazilian youngsters don't have breakfast. Or say something I see like: this part of the wall is not following the pattern.
but people don't say that's pointless, they usually laugh.

I do it too!! When I am going to meet someone in a few days I make a list of all the things I have to tell them or ask them. Then I don't talk to them anymore on the phone or online because I am saving the info for when we meet
ooh gosh this post is freaking interesting ! ! Now my life makes sense. My sister had told me I miss the point of what people are saying all the time, and I was like:"no I don't", because I understand what people say. But there's more than just understanding the info they are presenting ! That's what I have been missing ! I didn't know there was something like that to miss!

yeeah that's so true! People seem to see drama everywhere! After a party where there was no fight and no betrayals I say to my friends : so you guys have nothing to gossip about! " they answer: are you kidding?? And start to talk about thousands of things they read into each others comments.

greenpea thank you so much! I think you changed my life. Now I am definitely going for an aspergers evaluation. This is the (important) symptom I thought I didn't have ! I thought I understood social stuff but now I see I don't.

Discovering this indeed changed my life. It didn't make me more accepted or less alone, but it dramatically diminished the amount and severity of conflicts with people. I used to be constantly involved in huge conflicts where I was treated like garbage in spite of being the kindest of all those involved, and I didn't know why. I've since been able to keep an apt, a job, and a few acquaintances for a few years each. I gained more stability.

Funny that you called me greenpea, I was thinking lately I wish I had chosen Greenpea instead of Moondust for my 2nd registration.

This is the recipe I've adopted:

1. I remind myself that almost nothing uttered is a genuine, spontaneous, literal description of what's really going on inside the speaker.
2. I look for the conventional meaning of the words uttered. Because herein lies the basis of the game: the replacement of words by non-literal ones MUST be according to convention. Otherwise, you're just considered a whacko, not another player in society's game.

Eg: "let's get together sometime" is the widely accepted, conventional way of saying "let's part on amicable terms".

The good news is that there are some that are so easy to learn and at the same time so crucial and frequent, that we can learn them and really-really change our lives for the better.

I asked a co-worker if she liked cats. Knowing I'm a hardcore cat lover and rescuer, she answered: "To eat them, perhaps!" The intent behind her words should be interpreted like she's trying to offend me, hurt me, and ultimately show me that she hates me and wants to declare war on me. NOT that she honestly and innocently is thinking of eating cats. (in this case, however, because this woman presents lots of aspie traits, and because she was taking pride in how she grows fowl for food in her garden, I took it literally: she honestly doesn't see any purpose in an animal if it's not to eat it or use its skin. And I was spot-on.

The meaning varies depending on the pre-existing relationship between the two people. Here are examples ordered from most negative to most benign.

Meaning I hate you and will do my best to never, ever sit at the same table with you again but people are listening and I don't want to give them any fuel for gossip. Relationshiptoxic and competitive

MeaningSpending time with you is neither fun nor horrible. It's something neutral I do out of duty or need. I don't want to give you any fuel for gossip and if our paths cross again I won't be unnice but there isn't actually any relationship here [your above interpretation] Relationshipcordial acquaintances who observe the formalities in a largely neutral relationship

MeaningI had a pleasant time with you and if we cross paths again we will indeed hang out/have coffee but you aren't really a part of my day-to-day life so I'm not making any firm scheduled date. It just happens if it happens. Relationship Positive but not close. This is a common one for two friends who have grown apart and not spent time together for years but suddenly find themselves thrown together for a short while by circumstance. They no longer have an active friendship not because they had a falling out but because their lives went in very different directions and rarely intersect anymore. They no longer have much in common but there is no ill will. It is also common in people who just met and enjoyed each other's company more or less but have non-intersecting lives and no compelling reason to make them intersect (but not to actively avoid either).

MeaningLet's get together some time Relationship positive with frequent but unpredictably timed interactions. It could be coworkers on different floors of the same building, neighbors, friends whose life orbits intersect frequently but not constantly. My neighbor and I say this to each other often. Our schedules intersect chaotically so rather than make a firm schedule it's easier for us to say "how about now?" from time to time when we see each other and perhaps 30% of the time we can both say yes.

To figure out what a specific person means, you must first figure out the nature of your relationship.

As Moondust noted, there is a lot of scripting going on. If you hear a phrase said frequently in the exact same format, it is likely a script. Through observation you can learn the use of this script. "How are you?" is the most common example. "Let's get together some time" is more nuanced and used less frequently which is why it's harder for Aspies to pick up on than the ubiquitous "how are you?". If you listen, you will hear these scripted phrases and be able to learn the scripts.

Another more difficult example is when a person makes an observation of a situation that should change. If somebody says "I am thirsty" this means they want that situation to change and are requesting your assistance. The nature of that assistance is situational which is what will trip Aspies up as will not knowing it is a semi-scripted request for assistance rather than a statement of fact. It could mean they want a swig from your canteen, want you to hand them the bottled water next to you, want to know where the drinking fountain is, want you to go to the bar with them.

Unscripted sentences are dependent on body language, the motivation of the speaker (Theory of Mind) and pre-existing relationship


Yes, depending on format. Honesty will be more prevalent where there is anonymity (an anonymous message board such as this one versus facebook which depends a lot more on accepted scripts). Emojis/emoticons stand in for body language.



The secret handshake is body language. The giant communication disconnect between AS and NT people comes about partly because NTs don't consider it secret but obvious and have a hard time believing you don't find it obvious also. According to some threads, it can be learned to some extent.

I can relate to this because I have encountered this concept with my wife many times. I will give an example. My wife will ask me "What time does Staples close?" My natural response is to tell her "I don't know." She becomes highly irritated with me and becomes snarky with me. I realize that she actually wanted me to look it up and realize the misunderstanding on my part.

I ask her, "why didn't you directly ask me to look up the time for you?" She said "because I want you to show that you care and that you desire to look it up." In her mind, by my volunteering to do this I show that I care for her and when I take initiative as she calls it I show that I care about her and want to do it.

From this exchange this is what I can surmise.

1. For NTs or at least some doing chores is tied to their emotional states.
2. For me, chores are ties to my logical and rational center. For example, I will clean the kitchen because it needs to be cleaned and free of germs. For her, it is much more. It shows that I care. It is the same as taking out the trash. I take the trash out because it needs to be done and I don't want our house to become a landfill. For her, it makes her feel loved and again shows I truthfully care about our place of residence.
3. We can clash with this. If it makes no sense to me then I won't desire to do it and in the past I wouldn't do it. I have become better about this though.

I don't understand most of this stuff and even if I can learn I'm not willing to. I expect to be direct with people and them to be direct with me. If people hint around I'm not going to play guessing games with them.