First time in history!! !! The NT/AS open hotline ! !! !! !

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It has been a while since I've read about HSP but when I did read a book about it I kept thinking, "that's me...and me...and me again..." Lol.

I also had some nerve damage (some bad luck, it came after the marriage not before though), and I wonder if that has had anything to do with my actually coming to understand some of his and a relative's similar (sensory overload) issues, although, it was a bummer way to come to that. But now we both jump at unpleasant noises, and so on.

But I think I've always been HSP, the nerve damage just exacerbated some things. Mom compared me to the Princess and the Pea when I was little...I'm not sure where HSP is in relation to AS but, they do seem to share a lot of 'traits' or some might say 'issues.' I can also relate to the 'differentness' due to it.

We did have chemistry right away. I'd like to hear more of your theories on this, it's very interesting you have brought HSP up in regards to AS.

I don't think HSP and AS are opposites. That or there are large differences in the way AS manifests between different individuals. I almost certainly have both. I really can see both sides.

Hi Marshall!

I see HSP and AS as opposites in that HSPs tend to be hyper-aware of other people's thoughts, feelings, etc. According to E. Aron's research HSPs tend to be super aware of interpersonal and social cues and subtleties, and many also tend to navigate using intuition as somewhat of a 6th sense. E. Aron describes it as a semi-conscious constant processing of body language, facial expressions, etc.

For example, I LOVE LOVE LOVE eye contact because it makes me feel so much closer to the other person -- as if I could see right into them. One of the things that I remember the most about my relationship with my AS (before I started learning so much as ASDs) was that once in a while I would catch his eyes and instinctively I'd be looking for the glint of connection but it just wasn't ever there. It bothered me that I would look at his face sometimes and there would be this blank expression so I had no idea what he was feeling or thinking and and I would always end up feeling a sense of loneliness.


There are indeed many similarities in the sensory sensitivities between HSP and AS but in terms of interpersonal emotional bonding HSPs tend to thrive off and actively seek out deep interpersonal and emotional connections (Much deeper than the average NT). With this regard perhaps there isn't a term (yet) for individuals who are hyper-wired for interpersonal bonding.

It's hard to explain but I think I can be hyper-aware of people's thoughts and feelings in certain situations. It all depends on whether I'm focused. What I cannot handle is noisy group social interaction where people are constantly interrupting each other, talking over each other louder and louder, and laughing hysterically. It puts me on edge and shuts down my ability to comfortably interact. In a very quiet environment with no jarring interruptions, annoying background noises, etc... I can feel very focused and empathetic. I am the definition of HSP. Yet I still have the autistic tendencies to ramble on to long, go off into too many tangents, forget to ask appropriate questions, or have trouble organizing the point I want to get across in a concise way.


I know what you're saying. I can feel/see the emotion in other people's eyes easily, even with a quick glance, but intense eye contact makes me feel too vulnerable or just vaguely uncomfortable in some way. I have to look away to formulate a thought and then look back to gauge the persons response. I think my appearing deep in thought most of the time is misinterpreted as being disengaged. I'm not disengaged. I simply have to look away to focus. Sometimes I even have to look completely away and squint my eyes to think if I am getting stressed out. Maybe if I was extremely emotionally close to somebody it would be different but normally I need to be experiencing very strong emotion to have heavy eye contact.


I can see emotion intensely from a distance, but in person I can get overwhelmed, especially if there's a lot going on in the background. I feel like I need deep emotional connections but am constantly shut out due to NTs insisting on communicating in noisy distracting environments where I simply cannot get comfortable enough in my own skin to truly share myself. I think this is the source of the overbearing depression I've had ever since my teenage years.

Hoping this makes sense.

Both of you make sense to me, for what it's worth.

One thing I've learned is AS do not lack emotion, it just doesn't make it to the surface in ways NT are used to understanding.

HSP as Martha said though, have a nearly empathic reach out to other human beings; that sounds a bit odd or even braggy but it isn't. In acting class for instance I could sense a mood shift in someone (during exercises - improv - designed to bounce off one another emotionally speaking) from across the stage, with my back to them, in silence. So in some ways HSP are more NT than NT, in the sense of intuitively connecting to others' emotions; and in reading faces; also as far as needing that tactile and emotional and also 'eye contact.' HSP are very good at 'reading' the tiniest of micro expressions and vocal changes. Some can even tune in to a certain 'vibe' though that sounds odd.

I still have to remind myself it isn't personal if my guy won't look at me, even if I am upset and physically hurting I need that eye contact so badly. But it used to just slay me. "Why aren't I as interesting as the carpet/wall/etc." I'd say. Of course that only made him feel overwhelmed and made things worse, but I had absolutely no way to know that; he wasn't able or willing to learn enough to tell me so (not sure he knew why, himself, he couldn't make eye contact) and I had no way except to fumble online until I finally figured things out for myself. And I might add not everyone online is a facilitator in that regard. There seems to be a lot of political correctness in some quarters online about AS/NT (on both 'sides.') What most NT need at that point, that they turn to strangers for counsel, is empathy, patience, a lot of 'slack' and a lot of (frank but polite) information.

As Martha said, a lot of HSP love nothing more than to simply lie face to face staring into their loved one's eyes; enjoying each other's facial expressions; but the indication their loved one was sad would ignite an instant reaction of support from an HSP. It's very hard for us to fathom why it doesn't, if a person loves us. (So we interpret lack of response as lack of caring.)

It's hard for HSP to even explain to other NT the desire for bonded connection, almost a soul connection, they feel driven to seek from earliest memory. Not intenseness or neediness, but, just something that is there and can be relied upon.

It used to bewilder me how I knew I (facial expression-wise) would be so obviously in despair about something, to anyone on the street, yet my live in love had no clue. Now I know, but there were many tears along the way to figuring out why.

So if it helps marshall, there is loneliness on both sides.

But as far as noisy places, there are shy quiet NT, just have to find them.

I do think I can partially see into both worlds though, and the best explanation for that is that I have a touch of both. Though as a scientific minded person I don't believe telepathy or magic, I do sometimes feel a sort of sixth sense where I must be picking up on some kind of pattern, perhaps the it's the spacing of words or silence, that signals emotional tension. Contrary to the common conception of AS, my deficit has never been literally not picking up on things. It's always been responding in an immature or unhelpful way which I think is AS related. If I notice someone is acting the slightest bit off (moody, distraught) my instinct is to become distressed -- or even worse annoyed -- by it, especially if it's interrupting or distracting me from something else I'm doing.

It is a knee-jerk reaction that seems common even in NT guys. What I lack is the instantaneous instinct to try and comfort the person or resolve the conflict. I can only learn to do that by intellectually short-circuiting my distress response and trying to act empathetic instead. I think the real reason I can do this is the fact that I've struggling with quite severe depression and moodiness all my life. I've frequently been on both sides of that kind of interaction. I realize how hurtful the distress/annoyance response is because it's happened to me and the fear of it causes me to prefer to bottle up my feelings, hide my emotions, or become extremely angry/bitter towards people. I think I have a lot of the traits of HSP but lack the emotional maturity and communication ability NTs have in person. I know how to come across very mature and articulate online but somehow it breaks down when I'm interacting with a person in real life.



I think I know what is going on. It's hard to be the teacher in that kind of situation. It feels patronizing to him when you have to tell him how to act. It becomes a game where he is being expected to convince you that he genuinely cares while simultaneously being told he should act/feel a certain way. This feels contrived and puts him on the defensive. It could also be that he starts to feel like you are acting in the role of his mother as a "teacher" and that harkens back to an immature one-sided way of relating. In order to truly give-and-take emotionally he has to be made to feel he is on the same level as you, that you truly need him. I don't think that kind of thing can be forced in the moment. In order to be genuine he has to be taught how to respond ahead of time rather than in the moment of distress. It might be also be better if a counselor could work on this rather than you trying to teach him. It will ultimately be more rewarding if he can respond automatically rather than having to be told in the moment which leads to a feeling of the interaction being contrived/forced and not truly sincere or satisfying.


I can see that. Unfortunately I don't think there are that many people in the world who can instantly and instinctually cut through the personal distress reaction when someone's upset and go straight to a supportive role. An NT HSP like yourself can but most people have to learn how. Again, I've been on both sides of this.


I can't know without knowing him but it definitely is possible that he does notice but is shutting it out in order to avoid feeling distressed by it. I know that doesn't necessarily make you feel any better. I don't think it's hopeless though.


I think this whole modern world is full to the brim with loneliness and alienation. People who's emotional needs deviate from the norm in any way (whether it's AS, being a HSP, or having a mood disorder of some kind) are going to feel lonely a lot of the time.


With shy NTs I run into the problem where they have some of the same awkwardness as me leading to uncomfortable silence. Maybe I shouldn't automatically feel self-conscious about silence and assume it's my fault -- just learn to accept it as natural sometimes. It's easier if I can be doing things rather than being expected to make small-talk. I think what I really need though is a HSP who can facilitate conversation and make up for my "shyness". I put "shy" in quotes because I don't necessarily see myself as a timid person deep down, it's just how I come across due to being unable to easily facilitate small-talk.

Feel free to PM me if you want to. I don't mind.

Thank you to both marshall and MarthaBritton for being willing to talk about some highly personal things in order to (I am surmising, anyway) help others (at least partially is that the reason?)

I came here (to this site) to be helpful but occasionally am delightfully 'surprised' by someone or ones helping me. That is like being lifted up by fizzy bubbles. Thank you.

To reply to some points in marshall's last post:

Oh yes how I wish it were not so. But, it is. I wonder if it's a brain difference from birth, or, little boys are not taught to constantly seek to nurture other people's emotions or 'caretake' the way little girls are? I'm not sure. It could be a male/female brain difference; women tend to be more verbal. Men, I've noticed tend to (being very broad based here) look for a solution.

What happens then can be disastrous, if the woman needs to think out loud and vent, especially. The male, exasperated at the verbiage, interrupts to offer a "helpful solution" and is dinged for 1. interrupting and 2. not being willing to (just) listen. The more logic-minded and less verbal or empathic the male is, the more severe that dichotomy between the two could potentially be. At least, that's been my personal observation, down the years, hearing many couples talk about their interpersonal dynamic.



That seems a level of self insight not many people have, or try to have. I think that's at least half the battle.



Well, to clarify: This was years ago. We've come to an understanding. We have our own sort of language now, a lot of it non verbal. I still mostly lack emotional support but this whole experience changed me, and my expectations, tremendously. I have also become very good at distracting myself so that the need to have a shoulder to cry on (which didn't happen often, anyway) is greatly reduced. I would say it was less (emotional support) than most NT women would've needed, to begin with, (I've always been quite independent), but at the time, before I understood anything, that also made it more difficult to understand why I couldn't count on (even) that much. (In other words I only asked for support when it was truly truly needed.)

Men often say "I can't read your mind" and "women expect us to guess what's wrong and get mad when we can't" so I thought telling him exactly what was hurting my feelings was being a good partner. It did elicit what I would call a "teenage" response. That of course hurt my feelings even more so. He still becomes overwhelmed by emotion and is quick to 'blame himself' even if I'm actively telling him it has nothing to do with him, isn't his fault, & so on. I've read paranoia can be part of AS and wonder if that isn't a mild form of paranoia. I mean, it isn't even logical to think if I'm upset it's about him all of the time.

As to counseling, we did try that, at my suggestion of course, though he had to choose who. He didn't listen to the counselor, and wouldn't try any communication exercises. Basically it became a waste of money and effort to continue with it.

For the most part it is OK now, although I'm often in the role of "playing court jester," (to cheer him up or relieve a stressful day), and sometimes I just can't, and need to 'talk,' at which point he runs from the room. (sigh) He does have his own anxiety or depression and I understand how fragile that makes his nerves, so I don't blame him, but at the same time, both partners should feel taken care of in any relationship. I have had to do most of the adapting.

For all this, I'm not complaining; I could've left, no matter what that meant. (It isn't a very feasible choice for me, financially or any other way, besides, I'm loyal and made vows.) And it often feels like a miracle that someone is in my life who cares about me. (I've come to learn he does care. That to me was a key dilemma, as, otherwise there's nothing there to bind us.)

You said, eloquently, marshall, that people who are different from the norm emotionally are often alone. I was, most of my life, despite having male interest in me (which I was too naive to figure out was due to looks.) It's been quite a journey. It wasn't easy for him either. In some ways we're two orphans in a storm. We wouldn't be without one another at this point, and I now feel we were lid and pot all along, just had a lot of growing and adapting to do.

You could be right about an HSP being a good match for you; it could be difficult for them, however, to get their own needs met. Still I do believe there is a lid for every pot.

Thank you for the IM offer, might take you up on it sometime.

I'm actually not a very share-y person by nature, and it goes against my grain to share this openly, and personally. I do it only for others' sakes, because I know what the road is like, I've walked it barefoot.

I'm glad I can help. I don't always know how great I am at warmth and comforting but like to try and share any insight I have. It is nice with online anonymity because you don't have as many barriers but it's a little limiting too. I like getting positive feedback.


I don't see it as much as being logic-minded as an illogical discounting of emotion because it makes them uncomfortable. Humans are not robots. It can be scientifically demonstrated with hard facts and data that we have emotional needs. I think a lot of guys are just less aware and prefer to deny it until they run into circumstances where they themselves are needy. I myself seem to have a mix of male and female thinking style. Deep inside I'm both logical and emotional, though I'm not sure which side is more apparent on the outside




I apologize if I was being too presumptuous there as I didn't know you're full history or read all your posts. Also not trying to accuse you of being purposefully patronizing or anything. I think the relative rarity of you asking for support might have made it harder for him to give when you needed it. You are such a nurturing person he got a kind of immature lopsided view of the relationship, relating to you as a vaguely parental figure rather than someone on the same level as him that also needs support at times. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with being a caring/nurturing person. I'm happy you've at least been able to make some improvement.


Yea, it is a bit of a catch-22 and guys might not realize it, that spontaneity is sometimes necessary for support to seem genuine rather than forced, and sometimes that requires the dreaded "mind reading". Of course some things may just be impossible for him and it looks like you've been able to accept that.


It just seems like a natural but kind of immature response to me. He blames himself that he can't seem to do the right thing to make you feel better. The lower his own self-esteem the harder it is for him to see the relationship on an equal footing.


It doesn't sound like you're complaining or have done anything wrong. I'm glad things are working out better now.


Glad to hear that.


If it would be a growing experience for me it would be worth it. I have a lot to figure out though. I feel pretty stuck at the moment.


I wish people would share more often. I don't like living in a world where you have to fear sharing things because so many people are insensitive and cruel.

Hi NTs,

Sometimes I have very bad judgment of whether or not something is a social faux-pas. As a result, some things I say make NTs sort of realize I'm weird, other things they find downright insulting.

My mom goes batsh*t insane every time I commit a faux-pas. Of course I am always oblivious and often struggle to understand the reason for why she found it a faux-pas, or don't see eye-to-eye as to what is wrong with what I just did and its frustrating.

The latest, today, was in a clothing store. My mom never worked a day in a her life and my field is very conservative (medical school rotations). I have no idea what to wear for these things. I go to school in a warm climate. I don't have the foggiest idea what people wear and This rotation is off- campus (abroad) so I can't ask upperclassmen.

All I did was ask the sales lady if a skirt was too short for a professional job. My mom shot me daggers and them afterward yelled at me and told me the comment was "so aspergers" IN PUBLIC.

She stormed out of the store and sent me the following text:

" I almost died of embarrassment . Only a moron asks a sales lady what is appropriate to wear to work. Every job has diff dress code. U could ask someone in ur program but asking a sales lady who works at h and m is like asking a 4 yr old boy"

Yeah well what else am I supposed to do? I'm so confused!! Was what I said a faux-pas? If so, why??

Wow! Mom got upset because you did something "so aspergers!" Maybe next she will be upset with you for being bipedal, or human, or mammalian, or bilaterally symmetrical.

Is mom a snob? Does she get easily embarrassed if she or her family do not seem to conform to conventional roles in every situation?
I was brought up by people who did not ask questions because they did not want to be seen not to have all the answers already. I have friends who always question everything and ask lots of follow up questions. He learns a lot that way, even when he already knows "the answer" because he learns about other possible answers. I think his way is better. I wonder what the NTs will say.

I don't even think the question was aspergers or even weird and my hindsight is pretty good.

Yeah my family are rich snobs... lol. It made growing up aspie all the more difficult because rich people are such as*holes to anyone who deviates from perfect countenance, class, and social graces.... high society is like a shark tank for an aspie.

Yeah I'm curious as to what the NTs would say about the I appropriateness of the comment. Note, I'm young-looking, 23 but I look 16-18, so I'm thinking if it isn't completely acceptable, if anything, it is naive rather than aspie given I have zero work experience.

Wow.

Okay, NT feedback from this NT.

You did not commit a faux pas! Not whatsoever.

It is the saleslady's JOB to try to find people things to wear.

There was absolutely nothing wrong, whatsoever, in asking her to help you figure out what would be appropriate for a given occasion. Work would be one such occasion.

If she is a good salesperson, she would be thrilled to have a customer to help and would enjoy helping the customer (in this case, you.) She would ask you more questions such as what type of work you do. What type of office it is. etc. Again that is her JOB.

Could your mother possibly be on the spectrum herself? Or perhaps she is a narcissist since she is SO concerned with how you come across or 'appear' to others (i.e. as a reflection of her.) Figuring those things out might help you to understand her and thus predict her hurtful behavior a bit more often (and at least shield yourself mentally in advance from it.)

In my opinion, okay, it's just an opinion, but in my layperson opinion, your mom's reaction was way over the top and inappropriate - not very nurturing either.

Hope that helps. (And it's my honest opinion, I don't give any other kind.)

ETA: If you want to PM me, you can; I can give honest feedback about different types of clothing you're thinking about, given a location (doesn't have to be more than a state or general locale.) (You mentioned a 'warm climate' is the only reason I bring up location.)

ETA again: The fingertip rule is a good rule of thumb (no pun intended.) Stand casually with your feet together and arms at your sides. About where your longest fingertip naturally reaches in this position, is where your skirt should be if you want to be extra-extra safe in a work or job interview or 'lunch with grandma' type of 'proper propriety' situation. (Skirt can be longer, but not shorter, if you want to be on the safe side.) Also stick with neutral colors, no flashy patterns, although if it's hot temperatures there, nothing too dark.

Wow! Thank you so much!! ! That is so true. Yeah my mom freaks out over every little thing, and she has mini-meltdowns.... she argues she can't be on the spectrum because she knows social graces and has a lot of friends (which she does). She fits in with the "ladies who lunch" just fine. My uncle (her brother) has AS and maybe this comes from how frustrating it was growing up with him?

The job is medical (as I said, medical student rotations done in hospital). The dress code was said to be "professional". No other detail was given. It is in Singapore.

Thanks again!

ETA: BTW your argument was my EXACT argument to my mother as to why what i said was perfectly okay.

You are very welcome.

I'd say it's looking more and more like she could be on the spectrum - keeping in mind of course I'm a layperson...but with a brother and a son on the spectrum?

She could've simply memorized ways to behave. There are etiquette books written by experts. She may be drawn to high society because of its rigid rules. (Easier to memorize.)

I will do some googling on the location's norms to make sure but, probably as an expat you won't be expected to be perfectly in line with local dress and customs anyway.

Professional wear typically means a blazer, some button down shirts (white is a go-to color), and neutral color pants or skirts. They can't be jeans or look too casual. Maybe PM me with a type of budget or an online store you like to shop at (or more than one) and I can make some recommendations, which you can pick from (or something that looks like it.)

The good part about clothes shopping is, it's visual.

ETA: here is a visual guide on Pinterest. I like the one with the caption "understated casual but professional" - there are also some good examples of blazers, and color palettes, although I'd probably stay away from the purple and orange.

Thank you so much again! This is very kind of you. Also that was a pretty brilliant observation. My mother is the most rigid person I know about EVERYTHING. It's either her way or the highway. You are not allowed to have a differing opinion or else you're dumb or wrong, or aspie, or whatever.

She is so oppositional which is quite an aspie trait. I'm a bit oppositional too so we butt heads a lot. Unlike her though, I am totally fine with admitting I'm wrong (I just am a bit obsessed with bringing the truth to light). My mother refuses to admit she's wrong or has faults. One time I pointed out she can't take criticism she shot me down saying she never GETS criticism because she never does anything wrong to merit it. Huh? Who on earth never gets criticism! One time we were driving along the bus route I used to take in undergrad, and we were going to the YMCA. I took the bus past the YMCA every day, so I told her it was on X street, BEFORE Y street. She argued with me TILL THE DEATH that it was AFTER Y street. vehemently, raising her voice eventually. I refused to back down because she was wrong and I knew it. Eventually she started asserting her superiority due to her age, knowing the city better, etc. When she saw the Y in plain sight, before Y street, on X street, she literally REFUSED to acknowledge she was wrong. She said "Well I'm ALWAYS right! You should have listened to me anyway!"

She graduated in mathematics and compsci in university so she's into number-crunching too. And given that her dad is very likely aspie and her brother is a diagnosed aspie (extreme case, borderline autistic), then genetically it makes sense.

Just ugh. Living with her is great if you agree with her, hellish if you don't.

I found these images of docs in SIngapore in a quick Google search:
Raffles Cancer Center


There's another one for Singhealth:
http://www.singhealth.com.sg/DoctorsAnd ... _image.jpg

I would guess relatively long skirts and a conservative look was appropriate.