Adults with Aspergers Seem 'Normal' to Me

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And with reference to my ideas about the Asperger's diagnosis I totally agree with this:-

"Szasz consistently pays attention to the power of language in the establishment and maintenance of the social order, both in small interpersonal as well as wider socio-political spheres:

"The struggle for definition is veritably the struggle for life itself. In the typical Western two men fight desperately for the possession of a gun that has been thrown to the ground: whoever reaches the weapon first shoots and lives; his adversary is shot and dies. In ordinary life, the struggle is not for guns but for words; whoever first defines the situation is the victor; his adversary, the victim. For example, in the family, husband and wife, mother and child do not get along; who defines whom as troublesome or mentally sick?...[the one] who first seizes the word imposes reality on the other; [the one] who defines thus dominates and lives; and [the one] who is defined is subjugated and may be killed."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Szasz

I totally understand what you mean.

My way of looking at this 'hardly noticeable but noticeable enough to have people treat me differently' phenomenon is that in life you get on with some people and others you don't.
There are undoubtedly some people who's style of thinking and communicating differs from the average one but this is in my opinion just a difference, not a deficiency. It means the person is better suited to some environments than others.

Just because your thinking style puts you into a minority grouping does not mean it's in any way 'wrong' or in need of correction - it's just a difference. If people are obnoxious towards you as a result of that difference, that's them being obnoxious - nothing to do with you being inherently flawed ie it's them not you at fault.

Obviously if you think and communicate in a way the majority don't always relate to it can be a disadvantage but again that in no way defines it as a defect in my opinion

Some people can't swim - something that is a severe disadvantage if you find yourself in deep water but we don't stigmatise them for it - they just differ in their ability to be able to swim.
It's just seen as an arbitrary ability that some people have and others don't. It's the same with the ability to drive a car - some have it others don't. We don't tell them they have a disorder when they can't drive. Plenty who can't drive very well do drive though and wreak havoc on the roads!

In relation to that, where exactly would you draw the line (if you would at all) between a difference and a disorder/deficit in someone whose communication style also differs from the average (therefore being a difference for one) but in a way that limits them from expressing themselves independently from who they talk to in some few or in many situations (I realise that last part sure is vague but I mean to refer to that there are people who face this issue more often and also less often than others, so a concrete example would exclude nearly everyone who doesn't share the exact same experience for better or for worse)?

Or would you say that - for example - calling someone like that disordered is still dependant on whose point of view this definition comes from so this definition of a disorder isn't a innate to the nature of the person? No doubt they'd still struggle though, not being able to express themselves when they want to.

You're right. I'm not inherantly flawed, and I'm not less than a person without my difficulties. I'm disabled. Disability doesn't mean that I cannot be happy, that I cannot give to the world, or that I, or things I do, are worth less to the world. It means that the impairments I have are enough that I cannot function in the society we have, doing things people are expected to do or functioning at my optimal point. Disability means my impairments interfere with my daily life.

You should note that while some of us have been specifying that the disorder and disability language is useful for us, we've also been explicitly mentioning that disability isn't inherently negative and isn't something that people should look down at us or pity us for. We are people who are disabled, but that doesn't mean we're not people. I am autistic, and explicitly identify as "autistic" rather than "someone with Asperger's" or "someone with an autism spectrum disorder", but I don't think I should be changed into being neurotypical, even with all of what I have to deal with.

I am different, and not less. But my differences are disabling. There are a large number of people who are deaf who don't want to become able to hear - they're different, disabled, and fully able to say that they don't want to have to hear. I'm different, disabled, and fully able to say that I want to remain who I am, with all of the challenges of autism and all the advantage it has for my goals in life.

Autism doesn't prevent me from being worthy, it just is yet another part of me. Even if I were theoretically given the option of a cure, I'd reject it. However, I will use the diagnosis of autism, and the things it has allowed me, to become a happier, more functional, me; not a more functional person that society wants, but a more functional person based off of my own goals, my own strengths, and my own weaknesses.



Seeing as you've seemed to ignore what I've already posted about what my diagnosis has done for me in terms of what help its made available, lets try it from this direction...

I'm effectively alone in the house at the moment - everyone who can reasonably help me take care of myself is gone for the day. I'm able to do this, even in a location that makes me feel trapped because I have nowhere to go to get food if I can't take care of myself. It's only through a lot of work that came after noticing my weaknesses that this would be an option. Otherwise I'd be able to be alone for a period of time, but only in places I know the kitchen well, and know that either their is food that doesn't require prep, or food that is available if I leave the place.

Beyond that, and pulling from that, I'll be making myself food today and actually feeding myself rather than needing help. I can't do this always, and actually rarely can because there is so little I can do for food, but I've been able to put enough work into this because of my diagnosis that being able to feed myself if I need to is now something that can happen sometimes.

The latest meltdown I've had was Sunday. People knowing that I'm autistic, and knowing that I am myself, has allowed us to set up a situation where I am staying with others and they're doing what I need. I've not been at my most functional, because I'm not at home, but I've not had a meltdown in the multiple days I've been here.

I think it all depends on a person's expectations and goals in life

If your goal is to be able to get on well with most people you meet and communicate with them with ease then I think you are more likely to become disilusioned/unhappy if your thinking/communication style places limitations on your ability to do this.

But if you aren't bothered whether you get on with the majority of people or not as long as you have a few people you can communicate well with, you are less likely to be upset about it

It all depends on what you expect

Also a lot of NTs have communication problems - it's not the sole territory of people with an ASD

The idea that people with a so-called NT thinking/communuication style have perfect communication with each other is a fallacy - they often resort to violence and murder when their communication breaks down/when they feel thwarted, so they are far from some ideal I look up to!

So whether a particular thinking/communication style is seen as a deficit all depends on the perspective of the person with it and the people they interact with

There's also the extent to which the person wants to strive to imrpove their communication skills if they feel they are holding them back - some will learn how to improve them, others won't

It's a disorder if you want to see it that way but can also be seen as just a difference that you have to work around

I don't see people who judge me as defective as 'right', I see them as idiots who just need to be avoided

All people have difficulties they have to develop coping strategies for - the difficulties just vary in nature and the extent to which a person has the resources and inclination to want to develop the coping strategy

Some people prefer to have a label and say to others 'I have this difficulty please bear it in mind and be tolerant/make allowances for it' whereas others prefer to try and mitigate for the difficulty so that it's less apparent or avoid situations where it becomes apparent/disadvantageous to them that they have this difficulty

The second method has advantages over the first method in my opinion as it's autonomous ie you have control over it yourself, whereas the first method relies totally on the other person's inclination to make the allowances you are asking for - many won't

Communication problems are not the only part of Aspeger's or any other Autism Spectrum Disorder. If my only difficulties were in communicating with people who I don't want to communicate with, I'd not consider myself disabled either.




And some people, many of us even, will do a huge amount of avoidance and have that be not nearly enough.

It is impossible for me to avoid all situations and places that cause difficulties for me. If I did, I'd be killing myself slowly (which I do not wish to do). However, I can't even do that because I literally have yet to find any environment that does not cause difficulties.

I do however, avoid a huge amount because I need to avoid a huge amount. I sometimes have to avoid my apartment even.

Avoidance isn't enough for me. It helps, but even at the level which I do it, it causes problems from avoiding too much. I also cannot avoid everything which would be necessary to avoid if I were to avoid all difficulties rather than have to tell people that I have problems and rely on help.

Accepting help from others doesn't mean I'm not doing far more than people expect to help myself. It's just that at times accepting help is the best thing for me to do for myself.

Yes, I have major issues with the fact that I don't feel in control of my own life, but accepting help from others has only increased the control I have, not decreased it.

If seeing your differences as a disability helps you to cope that's good

I personally don't like the term disability and don't identify with it

I see it as a disempowering term

I can see that society effectively disables people who have a thinking/communication style that differs from that of the majority but I don't see the need for that person to term themself disabled as the word carries too much stigma in my opinion

To me, 'Disabling' is something that is done to a person by the attitudes of others or by society in general, as opposed to the person being inherently disabled in themselves

Maybe, but then the whole spectrum carries a stigma. And I am old enough to explain why. It is because Autism=ret*d/hopeless/institionalized for life to most people in the 60s. I was threatened with it more tiimes than I care to recall. It also unfortunately, meant parents have caused This to society. Even though Kanner recanted that very early on.
It does not mean we do not have very difficult challenges. But changing the language TOO much & people will trivialize all of our efforts.
And Nessa saying the current system amounts to a religion? WTH????? People still maintain 1970s beliefs about us. At least modern therapists are being realistic & not trying to turn people into something they NEVER will/can be. They are just trying to give us the skills we need. And many here will never be able to function on our own, fully. Though most can probably overcome a lot of the problems they do have. Which, again, are far more than their identity.
Nessa, do you realize the effect your words have on people HERE?

Sincerely,
Matthew

PS. We are deviating well away from the OPs argument, I think.

I can see you are in complete disagreeement with my ideas - that's your perogative

Others on this thread have discussed them in an interesting, open-minded manner though so I'm grateful for that

I think we are debating issues that have a direct connection with the original post - whether the discussion is interesting is my main criteria for judging a thread, not being pedantically obsessed with the extent to which what people say adheres to your personal interpretaton of the main theme of the thread

I didn't think you'd have any time for reading up on the views of Thomas Szaz somehow. Thomas Szaz compares the psychiatry field to religion so I'm not talking as much rubbish as you seem to think - try reading what he's actually said

You're a debate stifler rather than encourager aren't you Matthew?

Can I just clarify that if you are left on your own in the house and you aren't feeling able to make yourself something to eat or go out and buy something, you'd just not eat at all?

So ultimately if you felt unable to make or buy something to eat on too many days in a row you'd literally starve to death?

Also can I ask what it is specifically that you ahve difficulty with in terms of making yourself a meal?

Is it not being able to physically lift the food up, put it in your mouth, chew and swallow it
or is it because you feel too mentally demotivated to perform these actions ie you can do them but you don't feel able to do them/don't want to do them?

It depends on how my headaches go. If I go too long without eating and have developed a migraine from hunger, then I'd be incapable of keeping food down because of the migraine, and incapable of moving enough to get food.



In an extreme case, yes. I don't think I'd go to that extreme, but I need to assume I would, especially when taking the migraines that I get into account. If I actually were having bad issues I'd probably manage to make a phone call and get across that I'm not okay (though not in what manner) and have someone come and take care of me, but that's turning to others again.



I don't notice that I'm hungry until I'm developing a headache. I don't know how to vary from a set of directions at all, and need a recipe to make food (and can't make any substitutions, including in spices). I get migraines - including from hunger, and physically can't move when am having a migraine without causing even more extreme pain. I have severe sensory issues and can't always manage to so much as walk down the street to get to a sandwich shop or grocery store (I won't go to anything more than a sandwich shop on my own because I need to assume I'll be leaving the place immediately at any given moment and wouldn't be able to pay after the point where I need to leave.) Sometimes my sensory issues prevent me from doing dishes, and if dishes aren't clean to work with then I'll not be able to make food using those dishes in those situations. I have issues making decisions on what to eat, or other things that seem meaningless, unless there is an option that is just better than the alternative. Luckily, once I'm starting to feel physically ill from the hunger, whatever is faster becomes "just better".

Since I've been able to figure out what my actual issues are with making food, we've been able to work on it, and its getting better. I made myself oatmeal with spices today and will likely make myself curry lentils later today. This is by giving me a mental recipe and making sure I have all the ingredients for the recipe available if I'm to make food. We also tend to keep granola bars around, though we forgot to bring those when we left the apartment for a while, so that if I need food its available immediately. (I'm more prone to meltdowns when hungry and get migraines from hunger.) Having something like hummus and bread around, that doesn't require any prep, also works, but that's not something available at the current moment.

The easy way to solve this for a lot of people might be to just have microwavable food, but there's a limited amount of that which I'll eat, and the stuff I'll eat isn't stuff available at the nearby grocery store (which means I'd need to take two buses, each way to get it, and taking buses is something I can only do if really necessary - I often end up in enough pain by the time I get somewhere a few miles away that I miss my stop.) Much of the microwavable food is just too salty for me, and it can be difficult to even find vegetarian options for that.

It's working out, and I am eating healthy, but its something that I do need help with.



Neither. It's the process of actually getting food in an edible form. It's an executive functioning issue combined with sensory sensitivities that make the fact that I have this particular executive functioning issue worse.

I'm fine with eating when I have food that I'll eat, and actually eat a lot healthier than the average American.

http://books.google.co.uk/books/about/T ... OcRRum3XEC

Oh look - Thomas Szaz has written a book called 'The Manufacture of Madness
A Comparitive Study of the Inquisition and the Mental Health Movement'

"Every age, Thomas Szasz maintains, has its methods of labeling others to assign them a particular fate; the witch and the heretic were consigned to fire, for example. In the twentieth century, however, the priest has been replaced by the psychiatrist, the infidel by the patient; only the way in which the victims differ from society at large with its ensuing punishment (all for the good of society, then, as now) is different. Indeed, Szasz makes it clear that medicine is if anything a more insidious tyrant than religion because it purports to be beneficial to the patient as well as the commonwealth."

Of the thousands of books published each year in the United States, only a small proportion represents a significant contribution to the advancement of man's understanding of man. In my opinion, The Method of Madness is one of those rare books". -- American Sociological Review"

So it seems that in my comparisons of the autism and psychiatric fields to both religion and the Inquisition I am being backed up by a well-known academic

No need to apologise Matthew

If I go too long without eating I get a headache - I'd say that's pretty normal for a lot of people

If I get a headache I take two paracetamol and that usually gets rid of the headache then I will make myself something to eat

If I can't be bothered to make anything I will eat something that involves no effort, like a piece of bread or an apple. Or I might expend bit more effort and open a tin of tuna and have that on some bread as a sandwich

Or I might phone for a takeaway meal to be delivered.

If I have no food in the house I will ask my partner to walk to the local shop to buy something or go with him in the car to a local supermarket and do some shopping.

If I have food in the house but it's nearly run out I will order some more on the internet - this enables me to buy exactly what I need as I'm choosing it myself.

What I eat therefore depends on the amount of effort I am prepared to put in in order to
locate it, make it, buy it or ask someone else to do it

Im still here so it's evidently worked ok for me so far

This I share with you.
It is from birth that I cannot really feel being hungry causing a lot of underweight from early age on.
Something inside me is not "translating" the signals of being hungry in a "normal way".
When I tried to live "semi"-alone age 20 my weight went down to 35kg.
I share with you that often sensory issues prevent me from leaving the house meaning go to a shop and buy food.
Today I have been alone for the day and I haven't eaten a thing, because when I do not feel hungry I have problems swallowing food.

Should feel the same way as not drinking. As in thirsty for water. Except if you drink water it won't go away. You can't tell the differences. Well you might be able to depends how your wired, I guess or if your stomach rumbles, to indicate your hungry.

So question would be Thirsty or Hungry?

I can not feel hungry but get a headache which is my brain's way of telling me it wants food so then I will eat something, despite not really feeling like it, as my body has told me it is suffering due to lack of food. In other words I listen to what my body is telling me to do ie to eat rather than what I myself might prefer to do ie not eat