It's confirmed: I must get undiagnosed: how?

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Tyrion, what were the suicide attempts,.meaning what exactly did you do? Did they involve cutting? What were the circumstances proceeding if you can recall, and how old were you?

As has been pointed out by myself and some others here, many of these psychological disorders can and do overlap, and knowing intellectually what a particular disorder is does not necessarily lead to sorting it out, though it could be a tool..

No matter who you get angry at does not exactly matter if these people and experiences represent something else to you, which they surely do, and also, one thing I have observed is that anger is a common screen for another feelings that is more difficult to process, such as sorrow.

One thing for sure is that the journey out of deep psychological disorder is heroic. It is the path of the hero, and in the heroic quest miraculous help does come in amazing and unexpected ways, but first a person has to be dedicated to that quest.

You mentioned that you were read Swiss Family Robinson as a child at age six. I have been meaning to ask you, since you were the oldest child in the family., in what context? Were their older children there such as cousins? Whether you 'understood' it or not, as your mother says you did, in my opinion that is not really suitable reading material for a child of that age. I tried to read it to my own child at that age, as I recall, but it did not spark real interest. Were you given organic folk material that came out of a spiritual tradition such as, specifically, Grimm's Fairy Tales?

Also, have been meaning to ask about the person who you recall molested you as a child? You said this person had DID. Who was this person and how do you know this person had that? I would like to ask you more questions, but will wait, as I do not want to be too intrusive....

Finally, I hope you are smart enough not to take psychiatric medication if it is offered to you..My suggestion is to avoid that stuff like it is poison, as, generally speaking, it is.

That's also a good point. Sometimes there are very specific disoders the behaviour maches with and sometimes there are not. The human brain can't really get devided into seperat disorders.

I have a simmilar problem, but it's just with one behaviour. I show highly aviodant behaviour towards some situations and objects. Now the thing is, it's NOT AvPD, because I don't show that pattern in social situations. So the diagnostic criterias don't fit at all. But it's also not really general anxiety disoder or paranoia.

So the "disoders" are just there to group behaviour.
I read a text the other day, that approx. 1/4 of patients are "diagnostically homeless". That means that there behaviour doesn't really/easily fit into a diagnostic category.

Hi. First, re your comment that you disagree that a clinical discussion prevents forming a close relationship, maybe I put too much emphasis on that aspect but am not sure, probably did not, as I think on this forum (not meaning necessarily this particular thread, as I can feel a living potential here) it has gone way overboard. In any case, I did say it could be used to form a bridge, so I qualified that comment.

Re the quote above, the point you made about the primary caretaker and also society and friends seems to me to be very important, and I would like to go into it little by little. The primary caretaker (as she, assuming it was the mother, was at that time) no longer exists in the sense that that time is gone. What does exist is what the relationship encoded in the child, by encoded meaning a kind of complex knot that is tied, and also conditioned ways of responding in relationship with the world which are a buffer against unbearable emotional pain (and I have been there). From this perspective there is no way to exactly overwork the point of the primary caretaker in therapy, because it is how the child relates to the world, so memory serves as a kind of reference point, but,yes, it is essential to not get stuck there and to move into some kind of healing process. For this to happen the grown child needs to realize that that time no longer exists, but he is mechanically reenacting it. You would think to realize this would be easy, but it is actually very difficult because it is so sad. More on this later...

To become free of being stuck in that time zone which no longer exists is akin to coming back to life. In the fairy tales or Bible, that kind of organic material, people were turned into stone by a wicked witch or the devil, and the tears of a simple person such as the protagonist or hero brought them back to life, that kind of story, so to talk with a therapist about the mother and how it affected oneself is therefore a contextual reference point since the child is cut off, but the situation can also become alive in that the therapist is representing the mother in a di9fferent context, so an opportunity to reframe in a way that will lead to freedom---that is if you get a therapist who is self-actualized, but don't count on it.

Also, I do believe it is possible to leave out talking about that primary relationship almost completely, depending upon the framework that is being used to reframe the situation, such as if a person is using a spiritual framework like Christianity or Buddhism, but even in these cases there is a reference back to the mother in some way, but it becomes archetypal and/or representational of a different kind of relationship.

littlebee.

Okay. I wasn't completely disagreeing but more adding my 2C that obsessing over labels and connecting the dots is an aspie/pdd trait or maybe just a BAP or INTx trait. It may or may not be avoidance. Of course I can also imagine an "NT" wanting to put a name on something that enigmatic that makes them feel "different" all their life. There's also the fact that it's easier to discuss "what's wrong with us" on the internet behind anonymity or with a therapist who's job it is to listen. Psychological issues are just not something ordinary people talk about face to face, especially ordinary guys.



Okay. I'm not trying to contradict you or anything. I don't like being disagreeable except with people who are disagreeable back to me. I am just an armchair skeptical by nature and just wonder whether nurture/upbringing is possibly overemphasized. I see it sometimes treated as a way to help someone think "it's not my fault". The problem is where does that leave someone who didn't necessarily have a bad upbringing, yet still manages to be f'ed up (for lack of a more general label lol). It seems the root of a lot of issues that is a barrier is the psychological conflation of shame with responsibility. The only way out is to try to find a way to avoid the former without avoiding the latter. Maybe the upbringing discussion is a tool for this in some cases, but in other cases maybe it's not. It doesn't really make sense if it comes to the point of trying to convince someone of significant repressed memories that may or may not really even exist! I never underestimate the power of suggestion in getting people to believe things. Sorry if this is a little disjointed.

Hey Marshall, I really appreciate your contribution on this thread. Meant to tell you that yesterday when I wrote: A lot of what you have written does make sense and reading and replying helps put things into perspective for me.

The perspective I'm coming from is a little bit unusual, perhaps. It isn't for me about nature and/ or or versus nurture so much, but more about comprehensive brain function to the degree of transformation and how to achieve that. I discovered something rather unusual about how autism probably works and came here to share it.. I knew it would be difficult, but it may be harder than I thought it would be. That makes me feel kind of sad, in fact very sad. In fact so sad I have to stop writing. Now I am starting to wonder if EYE am bi-polar, ha ha---said in jest, but:-)

I think the root cause of this is shame avoidance. You turn to outward hostility to avoid feeling shame. Does the change seem to flip like a switch? Does a conflict or stressful situation bring it on? Does it ever feel unreal, like you're observing your consciousness through a movie projector?

Tyrion....You didn't answer my question right under the above quoted message on page 14. Maybe you didn't see them or maybe it was too personal.

In any case, what you have described in this message and kind of from the beginning sounds like BPD or, of you want to get more technical, yes, NPD/BPD. To understand these disorders it would be very helpful to study what is called object relation theory. Yes, it can be fun to be on the edge, taking risks and getting away with it, an alive feeling, but as I wrote you before, this could backfire at some time in your life, any time, and you do not want that to happen as, depending on the circumstances, it could put you over the edge.

Yes to most of this. But not sure if I quite understand the feeling "unreal" part. I tend to feel like other things are unreal, but I don't tend to think of my self as an entity at all, so I am not sure if I could ever feel unreal.

EDIT: I'm skeptical of BPD for several reasons. First, I am not particularly out of control outwardly, nor do I really fear abandonment. Almost everyone who knows me would laugh hysterically at any suggestion that I have "emotional dysregulation." Second, there's often very little connection between my outward presentation and inward emotions. Third, flattened emotional presentation fits better with NPD. With NPD, you can have erratic and impulsive behavior but appear to be in complete control, even if you're not. That's often me, although I have had irrational meltdowns before.

Last edited by Tyri0n on 24 Apr 2013, 6:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

1. suicide attempts: none for years. One wasn't really an attempt; it didn't go that far. It did involve a sharp blade. The other one, I tried to hang myself out of a window late at night when no one was around, and someone discovered me and cut me down.

2. My family was quite poor so stayed in my grandmother's large house. My grandmother had a spiritual "ministry" for people who were troubled for "spiritual healing." This was one of her clients who stayed at that place for several years. It was between the ages of 4-6. Some of it involved direct abuse, and some of it involved directed abuse of animals. I was very young, so I only vaguely remembered a few incidents, but my mother figured out it was happening at the end, although kept it a secret until last year. But I've been taking a medication with side effects that revives old memories, so a lot of these memories have come back recently.

3. There really weren't traditional fairy tales. Most of my exposure to stories was to the Bible and stuff like Swiss Family Robinson. Although I was late in acquiring language, I acquired it very quickly. Although I could not read until very late, my oral verbal comprehension was quite good beginning at 5-6. I used to be able to recite back passages from fiction, and I used to watch science videos and be able to spit them back verbatim. Even today, as I'm taking an acting class, I can learn lines after going through a paragraph once or twice, which others can't do. I think this is a symptom of Nonverbal Learning Disorder.

Another thing: I get tired of individual people and, to a much lesser extent, things and places very quickly. I don't know if this fits with the idealization-devaluation cycle in BPD.

Okay. Maybe I'm just trying compare to something I've experienced before under stress where I've felt this surge of adrenaline go through me and suddenly I feel "loose" almost like being intoxicated but not the same as it's not accompanied by any loss of functioning or coordination. It almost feels like functioning improves because suddenly I feel as if I'm doing things in automatic pilot. I pinned it down to depersonalization but it isn't the same as common descriptions of "not recognizing yourself". It's more like I'm viewing everything indirectly through a movie projector. Because it doesn't feel as if the "weight" of reality is as intense as normal I feel less inhibited. It's also not really a bad feeling. It is either neutral or even a sense of relief/catharsis/euphoria.


It's hard to say as the two are actually closely related and you don't seem like true NPD either. Also, I don't think it has to be fear of abandonment in a male as much as fear of shame/humiliation.

Maybe that's helpfull for you, I found my personality subtype that way:
http://millon.net/taxonomy/summary.htm

Five of them seem to fit, which makes things more confusing.

1. Narcissism: Compensatory

2. Avoidant: Conflicted

3. Antisocial: Covetous

4. Negativist: Vacillating (one of the strongest)

5. Borderline: Petulant


I think we can group these into two categories though.








I did notice that both Borderline with negativist features and Negativist with Borderline features fit. Also Narcissism with negativist features fits. Also, avoidant with negativist features.

So the common theme seems to be "Negativism." But "Negavitistic Personality Disorder" is not in the DSM, right? You could actually build my PD from elements of

NPD
Antisocial
Borderline
Avoidant

to make a Personality Disorder--Not Otherwise Specified "Negativistic Personality Disorder"? Except I don't know if I have the key features of passive-aggressiveness. I don't know if I passively resist demands, or intentionally do a poor job on something.

I still think either

1. Compensatory Narcissist; or

2. Petulant Borderline

would capture most everything.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive-ag ... Appendix_B

So it could be "PDD-NOS (negativistic personality disorder)"

If I were you I would talk with your therapist about it and also why you identify with those clusters you mentioned.

What is Negativism without demand-avoidance?

Answer:

Petulant Borderline or Compensatory Narcissist?

I don't know if it's that easy, because you would need some other features in addition if it's really Borderline or Narcissism. Maybe you just have negativistic features and try to find an explenation in this psychiatric terms?
Just asking.

I've some (but just some) negativistic features, but in my case they are part of: "Timorous Schizotypal". I actually needed years to understand that pattern. Sometimes there is one and sometimes it's hard to find and sometimes people are no classic cases of disorders/subtypes and then it's getting complicated.