It's confirmed: I must get undiagnosed: how?

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marshall
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25 Apr 2013, 11:55 am

I came up with a spectrum of "shame-based" identity / self-perception problems.

Unadmired / Disrespected
Impotent / Powerless
Inadequate / Failure
Rejected / Disapproved
Invalidated / Misunderstood
Guilty / Evil
Abandoned / Ignored
Unappreciated / Taken For Granted
Unloved

The ones toward the top could be assumed to be male-role NPD related, the bottom more female-role BPD related. I think they really all represent the same thing and are experienced by everyone, male and female, on a deeper level, but the top two are more likely to lead to antisocial activities



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25 Apr 2013, 12:23 pm

marshall wrote:
The ones toward the top could be assumed to be male-role NPD related, the bottom more female-role BPD related. I think they really all represent the same thing and are experienced by everyone, male and female, on a deeper level, but the top two are more likely to lead to antisocial activities


Yeah, so far I've read many researchers belief that NPD and BPD are pretty much the same thing anyway.
Usually PDs that are in the same clusters (in this case "cluster B") are related to each other.


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25 Apr 2013, 2:51 pm

Tryrion, thanks for answering my questions....have to think before I respond

Re various recent comments about the overlapping of NPD/BPD and questions about the possible redundancy of that, I have had to think about this for a while, but here is my take at the present time:. It has to do with object relations theory which is almost surely the angle a therapist is approaching from: some of the symptoms surely do overlap, but NPD occurs at a closer to normal functioning as the (lack of) integration and compensation occurs at a later stage, so the personality is more integrated. For someone with BPD and a therapist working with a client with BPD it might make more sense to approach from this angle, as probably a person is not completely stuck at one level of integration, so coming at it from the angle of NPD can sort of build a bridge, both 'backwards' and forward, like a wave length, and this can help a person to progress. If a person feels entitled he does not really have to know why in order to begin to understand how this way of approaching life may not really work to his own best advantage, but BPD is something else. A person can work on certain behavior, but that disorder runs very deep, so it is too painful to approach directly.



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26 Apr 2013, 2:34 am

Raziel wrote:
Tyri0n wrote:
What is Negativism without demand-avoidance?

Answer:

Petulant Borderline or Compensatory Narcissist?


I don't know if it's that easy, because you would need some other features in addition if it's really Borderline or Narcissism. Maybe you just have negativistic features and try to find an explenation in this psychiatric terms?
Just asking.

I've some (but just some) negativistic features, but in my case they are part of: "Timorous Schizotypal". I actually needed years to understand that pattern. Sometimes there is one and sometimes it's hard to find and sometimes people are no classic cases of disorders/subtypes and then it's getting complicated.


What would be the key differences between Negativism and a Petulant Borderline? I could be a petulant borderline or a vacillating negativist. Or a compensatory narcissist. It seems like these are all basically the same...

Would the treatment for them be any different? Just a matter of fixing chemical imbalances, perhaps?



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26 Apr 2013, 5:23 am

Tyri0n wrote:
What would be the key differences between Negativism and a Petulant Borderline? I could be a petulant borderline or a vacillating negativist. Or a compensatory narcissist. It seems like these are all basically the same...

Would the treatment for them be any different? Just a matter of fixing chemical imbalances, perhaps?


I can't really answer all your questions that easily, but I have a book at home at the moment from the libary. It's: "Disorders of Personality DSM-III: Axis II" from Theodore Millon. So it's not the newest one, but Millon still has great deal of knowledge about personality disorders.
First of all Millon beliefs that "passive-aggressive PD" and "nacrissistic PD" are both "basic personality disoders", but "borderline PD" instaed is - like schizotypal PD and paranoid PD - a "severe personality disorder".

I'll quote some parts out of there, maybe it helps. :)

"Borderline Personality:
The Unstable Pattern


[...]

Although the term borderline was retained, its evolution in the deliberations of the DSM-III committee reinforces the notion that it is a specific diagnostic entity that has stabilized at an advanced level of dysfunction. More importantly, its clinical characteristics are not only those of a personality syndrome but one that falls within the broad spectrum of affective disorders. In the sense, it parallels the schizotypal syndrome, which was also conceived as an advanced level of personality dysfunction but within the schizophrenic disoders spectrum.
[...]
The most salient feature of this person is the depth an variability of moods. Borderlines tend to experience extended periods of dejection and disillusionment, interpersed occasionally with brif excursions of euphoria and significantly more frequent episodes of irritability, self-destructive acts, and impulsive anger. The moos are often unpredictable and appear prompted less by external exents than by internal factors.

[...]

Borderline-passive-aggressive mixed personality. These patients may be difficult to distinguish from their less severe counterparts. The overt symptoms of the advanced dysfunctional borderline are, of course, more intense, and psychotic episodes occur with greater frequency than in the milder variant. Both, however, are well characterized by their unpredictability and by their restless, irritably, impatient, and complaining behaviors. They are judged by associates as disgruntled, discontent, stubborn, sullen, pessimistic, and resentful. Easily disillusioned and slighted, they tend to by envious of others and feel unappreciated and cheated in life. Despite their resentment of others, these borderlines fear seperation from them. These patients are ambivalent, trapped by conflicting inclinations to "move toward, away, or against others." They vacillate perpetually, first finding one course of action unappealing, then another, then a third, and back again. To give in to others is to lose hope of independence, but to withdraw is to be isolated. Borderline-passive-aggressives have always resented their dependence on others and hate those to whom they have turned to seek security, love, and esteem. In constrast to their milder counterpart, the borderlines feel they never had their needs satisfied and never felt secure in their relationships.
The borderline-passive-aggressive openly registers disappointments, is stubborn and recalcitrant, and vents angers directly, only to recant and feel guilt and contrition. The patients are indecisive and oscillate between apologetic submossion, on the one hand, and subborn restistance and contrariness on the other. Unable to get hold of themselves and unable to find a comfortable niche with others, these borderlines become increasingly testy, bitter, and discontent. Resigned to their fate and despairing of hope, they vary unpredictably between two pathological behavior extremes. At one time, they voice feelings of worthlessness and futility, are highly agitated or deeply depressed, express guilt and are severely self-condemnatory and self-destructive. At other periods, their negativism may cross the line of reason, break out of control, and drive them into maniacal rages in which they make excessive demands of others and viciously attack those who have "trapped" then and however, they may turn their hostility inward, be remorseful, plead forgiveness, and promise "to behave" and "make up" for their unpleasant and miserable past. These resolutions are usually short-lived."

I'll also type you the other two subtypes. But first I'll make myself some food.


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Last edited by Raziel on 26 Apr 2013, 1:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Raziel
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26 Apr 2013, 6:36 am

"Narcissistic Personality:
The Egotistic Pattern


[...]

Much has been written in the recent literature seeking to clarify similarities and differences between narcissistic and borderline personalities. This preoccupation reflects confusions that exist in the field concerning what these new syndromes constitute in the first place. As presented in contemporary psychoanalytic literature, both syndromes are formulated often as obscure matrices of intangible metapsychological concepts that lack clear clinical referents, often leading the less experienced clinician to conclude that they are quite similar and difficult to disentangle. No difficulty of this sort will exist among readers who review each set of diagnostic criteria spelled out in the DSM-III. In brief, the similarieties between these syndromes are miniscule, and each is clearly delneated and comprehensible, even to the clinical novice."

Sadly the narcissistic subtype you wrote about is not in the book.


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26 Apr 2013, 7:20 am

"Passive-Aggressive Personality:
The Negativistic Pattern


[...]

Passive-aggressive-borderline mixed personality. The second most frequent profile [after PaPD-histrionic mix] was composed of the passive-aggressive-borderline combination. Here, the more severe features of the borderline tend to accentuate the moodiness and behavioral unpredictability that characterize the passive-aggressive. MCMI research suggests that this pattern may frequently be found among younger (Vietnam) veterans seen in VA mental hygiene clinics, chronic alcoholic patients "drying out" in jails and "stockades," and female psychiatric patients at half-way houses and day-care centers. The following narrative is taken from an MCMI computer report based on the responses of a 28-year-old divorced Vietnam veteran attending a weekly VA outpatient "medication" group treatment program:

The patients behavior is typified by highly variable and unpredictable moods, an embittered and resentful irritability, and an untrusting and pessimistic outlook, notably the feelings of having been cheated, misunderstood, and unappreciated. An intense conflict between depedency and self-assertion contributes to an impulsive akd quixotic emotionality. He exhibits deficient regulatory controls with fleeting thoughts and emotions impulsively expressed in unmodulated form and external stimuli evoking capricious and vacillating reactions. There is a pattern of negativism, sullen pounting, fault finding, and stubborneess that is punctuated periodically by short-lived enthusiasms, belligerent, and querulous outbursts and expressions of guilt ajd contrition.
The patient anticipates being disillusionedin relationships with others and often precipitates being disillusioned in relationships with others and often precipitates disappointments through obstrucive behaviors. Though desperetely seeking closeness and intimacy, he is deeply untrusting and fearful of domination, resists external influence, and is suspliciously alert to efforts that might undermine self-determination, resists external influence, and is suspiciously alert to efforts that might undermine self-determination and autonomy. Personal relationships are fraught with wrangles and antogonisms, provoked often by his bitter complaining, passive-aggressive behaviours, touchiness, and characteristic irascible demeanor. The struggle between feelings of resentment and guilt, and the conflict over dependency and self-assertion permeate all aspects of his life.
The patient displays an unpredictable and rapid succession of moods, is invariably dysphoric in affect, seems restless, and is capricious and erratic in the expression of feelings. The is a tendency to be easily nettled, offended by trifles, and readily provoced into being fretful, contrary, and hostile. There is a low tolerance for frustration and he is impatient and fractious unless things go as desired. He will vacillate between being distraught and despondent, at one time; and being irrationally negativistic, petty, spiteful, and contentious, another. His disputatious and abrasive irritability precipitates exasperation in others, leading them to stereotype him as a person who dampens everyone's spirits, a pleasures of others. There is a sturggle between acting out and curtatling resentments. The sulking and unprredictable "blowing hot and cold" behaviors prompt others into reacting in a parallel copricious and inconsistent manner, causing them to weary quickly of him. As a result, he reports feeling misunderstood and unappreciated, at one time, and turning inward, expressing self-condemnation, the next.
The patient is overly sensitive to the attitudes of others, exhibiting an agitated defensiveness and brooding suspiciousness. Others are often seen as devious and hostile, and he repeatedly distorts their incidental remarks so as to appear deprecating and vilifying. He hesitates displaying weakness lest these be fatal concessions that will be misused by the possibility of attack of dereagation, a defensive stance from which he can react at the slightest hint of threat. Feelings of retribution for past mesreatment underlie his hostility, envy and, suspiciousness, Unfortunately, these behaviors often set into motion a self-fulfilling prophesy, driving away potential well-wishers and creating unnecessary frictions, which are then seen by him as proof and justification for suspicion and hostility."

I hope that helps. :)


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Tyri0n
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26 Apr 2013, 11:32 am

Raziel wrote:
"Passive-Aggressive Personality:
The Negativistic Pattern


[...]

Passive-aggressive-borderline mixed personality. The second most frequent profile [after PaPD-histrionic mix] was composed of the passive-aggressive-borderline combination. Here, the more severe features of the borderline tend to accentuate the moodiness and behavioral unpredictability that characterize the passive-aggressive. MCMI research suggests that this pattern may frequently be found among younger (Vietnam) veterans seen in VA mental hygiene clinics, chronic alcoholic patients "drying out" in jails and "stockades," and female psychiatric patients at half-way houses and day-care centers. The following narrative is taken from an MCMI computer report based on the responses of a 28-year-old divorced Vietnam veteran attending a weekly VA outpatient "medication" group treatment program:

The patients behavior is typified by highly variable and unpredictable moods, an embittered and resentful irritability, and an untrusting and pessimistic outlook, notably the feelings of having been cheated, misunderstood, and unappreciated. An intense conflict between depedency and self-assertion contributes to an impulsive akd quixotic emotionality. He exhibits deficient regulatory controls with fleeting thoughts and emotions impulsively expressed in unmodulated form and external stimuli evoking capricious and vacillating reactions. There is a pattern of negativism, sullen pounting, fault finding, and stubborneess that is punctuated periodically by short-lived enthusiasms, belligerent, and querulous outbursts and expressions of guilt ajd contrition.
The patient anticipates being disillusionedin relationships with others and often precipitates being disillusioned in relationships with others and often precipitates disappointments through obstrucive behaviors. Though desperetely seeking closeness and intimacy, he is deeply untrusting and fearful of domination, resists external influence, and is suspliciously alert to efforts that might undermine self-determination, resists external influence, and is suspiciously alert to efforts that might undermine self-determination and autonomy. Personal relationships are fraught with wrangles and antogonisms, provoked often by his bitter complaining, passive-aggressive behaviours, touchiness, and characteristic irascible demeanor. The struggle between feelings of resentment and guilt, and the conflict over dependency and self-assertion permeate all aspects of his life.
The patient displays an unpredictable and rapid succession of moods, is invariably dysphoric in affect, seems restless, and is capricious and erratic in the expression of feelings. The is a tendency to be easily nettled, offended by trifles, and readily provoced into being fretful, contrary, and hostile. There is a low tolerance for frustration and he is impatient and fractious unless things go as desired. He will vacillate between being distraught and despondent, at one time; and being irrationally negativistic, petty, spiteful, and contentious, another. His disputatious and abrasive irritability precipitates exasperation in others, leading them to stereotype him as a person who dampens everyone's spirits, a pleasures of others. There is a sturggle between acting out and curtatling resentments. The sulking and unprredictable "blowing hot and cold" behaviors prompt others into reacting in a parallel copricious and inconsistent manner, causing them to weary quickly of him. As a result, he reports feeling misunderstood and unappreciated, at one time, and turning inward, expressing self-condemnation, the next.
The patient is overly sensitive to the attitudes of others, exhibiting an agitated defensiveness and brooding suspiciousness. Others are often seen as devious and hostile, and he repeatedly distorts their incidental remarks so as to appear deprecating and vilifying. He hesitates displaying weakness lest these be fatal concessions that will be misused by the possibility of attack of dereagation, a defensive stance from which he can react at the slightest hint of threat. Feelings of retribution for past mesreatment underlie his hostility, envy and, suspiciousness, Unfortunately, these behaviors often set into motion a self-fulfilling prophesy, driving away potential well-wishers and creating unnecessary frictions, which are then seen by him as proof and justification for suspicion and hostility."

I hope that helps. :)


This one sounds more like it. But with some key differences. There is no "desperately seeking intimacy" in my case. Which leads me to believe that the Narcissistic with Negativist features is another possibility. Actually, it could quite easily be all three of these; what I get may depend on my clinician as much as anything else.

1. Borderline with negativist features ("Petulant Borderline")

2. Narcissism with negativist features (the "Compensatory Narcissist")

3. Negativist with borderline features ("Vacillating Negativist")

It's at least helpful to be able to think of it in subtypes like this. Thank you, Raziel. This has helped a lot. I am moving soon and will need to find a new therapist to further help with unravelling this mystery.



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26 Apr 2013, 1:33 pm

Tyri0n wrote:
This one sounds more like it. But with some key differences. There is no "desperately seeking intimacy" in my case. Which leads me to believe that the Narcissistic with Negativist features is another possibility. Actually, it could quite easily be all three of these; what I get may depend on my clinician as much as anything else.

1. Borderline with negativist features ("Petulant Borderline")

2. Narcissism with negativist features (the "Compensatory Narcissist")

3. Negativist with borderline features ("Vacillating Negativist")

It's at least helpful to be able to think of it in subtypes like this. Thank you, Raziel. This has helped a lot. I am moving soon and will need to find a new therapist to further help with unravelling this mystery.


Of course it could be all three of it, especially because all three are cluster B peresonality disoders. Well, actually "negativistic PD" is not in those clusters anymore, but if it would, it would be in cluster B.
Why I think it makes sence to think of it in "subtypes" is because most people have one dominant personality types with features of other personality types.

I'll make you an example:
I'm propably schizotypal and it's the only PD I ALWAYS fullfill enough diagnostic criteria. But I know that I behaved in the past also highly paranoid in a certain situation that reminded me on a trauma. But in general, I don't fullfill those. So I've paranoid features if you will.

And that's the key difference between a personality disorders and "features". When you have a personality disorder, you ALWAYS fullfill enough diagnostic criteria and if you have "just" features, you either just fullfill some aspects of it or the behavioural pattern comes and goes like in my example.

I guess, what's important in your case is to find out wich PD-type is the "dominant" one or if you really fullfill from more than one PD the diagnostic criterias, what wouldn't be that unusually, but still then there is usually one "dominant" type.


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27 Apr 2013, 10:43 am

Raziel wrote:
Tyri0n wrote:
This one sounds more like it. But with some key differences. There is no "desperately seeking intimacy" in my case. Which leads me to believe that the Narcissistic with Negativist features is another possibility. Actually, it could quite easily be all three of these; what I get may depend on my clinician as much as anything else.

1. Borderline with negativist features ("Petulant Borderline")

2. Narcissism with negativist features (the "Compensatory Narcissist")

3. Negativist with borderline features ("Vacillating Negativist")

It's at least helpful to be able to think of it in subtypes like this. Thank you, Raziel. This has helped a lot. I am moving soon and will need to find a new therapist to further help with unravelling this mystery.


Of course it could be all three of it, especially because all three are cluster B peresonality disoders. Well, actually "negativistic PD" is not in those clusters anymore, but if it would, it would be in cluster B.
Why I think it makes sence to think of it in "subtypes" is because most people have one dominant personality types with features of other personality types.

I'll make you an example:
I'm propably schizotypal and it's the only PD I ALWAYS fullfill enough diagnostic criteria. But I know that I behaved in the past also highly paranoid in a certain situation that reminded me on a trauma. But in general, I don't fullfill those. So I've paranoid features if you will.

And that's the key difference between a personality disorders and "features". When you have a personality disorder, you ALWAYS fullfill enough diagnostic criteria and if you have "just" features, you either just fullfill some aspects of it or the behavioural pattern comes and goes like in my example.

I guess, what's important in your case is to find out wich PD-type is the "dominant" one or if you really fullfill from more than one PD the diagnostic criterias, what wouldn't be that unusually, but still then there is usually one "dominant" type.


Which PD would be consistent with constantly feeling "persecuted" or judged by persons and institutions in spite of little or thin evidence?

It's always like I need a target for my hostility/blame. The target can be a person, a group of people, an institution, or sometimes, all of U.S. society. Previously, it was often my parents, who were actually blameworthy, but many of my other targets don't deserve it. I feel the need to compulsively criticize, almost never people to their face, unless I've been dating them; then, yes. When someone or something becomes a target, whether it is a girlfriend or a group of others, the person or institution becomes the object of passive-aggressive behavior, constant criticism, and occasionally, open hostility. But I dislike open confrontation so tend to avoid it as much as possible.

I am also unbelievably jealous of many people. The hostility doesn't necessarily come from NPD (though it might? I don't know). It seems like it could also come from a persecution complex -- maybe a different expression of what leads to avoidant traits?

Anyway, I would like to include an illustration to illustrate the point I was trying to make with this thread about Asperger's being an incorrect diagnosis.

Here is how someone like me could be very easily misdiagnosed with ASD (DSM 5 criteria for Autism):

color coding:

Nonverbal Learning Disorder
Personality Disorder, such as Negativist PD, BPD, or Compensatory NPD

Quote:
A. Persistent deficits in social communication and social interaction across contexts, not accounted for by general developmental delays, and manifest by all 3 of the following:

1. Deficits in social-emotional reciprocity; ranging from abnormal social approach and failure of normal back and forth conversationthrough reduced sharing of interests, emotions, and affect and response to total lack of initiation of social interaction.

2. Deficits in nonverbal communicative behaviors used for social interaction; ranging from poorly integrated- verbal and nonverbal communication, through abnormalities in eye contact and body-language, or deficits in understanding and use of nonverbal communication, to total lack of facial expression or gestures.

3. Deficits in developing and maintaining relationships, appropriate to developmental level (beyond those with caregivers); ranging from difficulties adjusting behavior to suit different social contexts through difficulties in sharing imaginative play and in making friends to an apparent absence of interest in people

B. Restricted, repetitive patterns of behavior, interests, or activities as manifested by at least two of the following:

Stereotyped or repetitive speech, motor movements, or use of objects; (such as simple motor stereotypies, echolalia, repetitive use of objects, or idiosyncratic phrases).

Excessive adherence to routines, ritualized patterns of verbal or nonverbal behavior, or excessive resistance to change; (such as motoric rituals, insistence on same route or food, repetitive questioning or extreme distress at small changes).

Highly restricted, fixated interests that are abnormal in intensity or focus; (such as strong attachment to or preoccupation with unusual objects, excessively circumscribed or perseverative interests). [or OCD?]

Hyper-or hypo-reactivity to sensory input or unusual interest in sensory aspects of environment; (such as apparent indifference to pain/heat/cold, adverse response to specific sounds or textures, excessive smelling or touching of objects, fascination with lights or spinning objects).



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27 Apr 2013, 2:03 pm

Tyri0n wrote:
Which PD would be consistent with constantly feeling "persecuted" or judged by persons and institutions in spite of little or thin evidence?

It's always like I need a target for my hostility/blame. The target can be a person, a group of people, an institution, or sometimes, all of U.S. society. Previously, it was often my parents, who were actually blameworthy, but many of my other targets don't deserve it. I feel the need to compulsively criticize, almost never people to their face, unless I've been dating them; then, yes. When someone or something becomes a target, whether it is a girlfriend or a group of others, the person or institution becomes the object of passive-aggressive behavior, constant criticism, and occasionally, open hostility. But I dislike open confrontation so tend to avoid it as much as possible.

I am also unbelievably jealous of many people. The hostility doesn't necessarily come from NPD (though it might? I don't know). It seems like it could also come from a persecution complex -- maybe a different expression of what leads to avoidant traits?

Anyway, I would like to include an illustration to illustrate the point I was trying to make with this thread about Asperger's being an incorrect diagnosis.


To me this sounds mostly negativistic.
But it's hard to tell, because I'm neither a psychiatrist, nor do I know you in person.
But from what I read here, it sounds mostly negativistic for me, but you also sound very analytical for me, what's very autistic (not just autistic, but for autistics it's very common).


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27 Apr 2013, 2:53 pm

Raziel wrote:
Tyri0n wrote:
Which PD would be consistent with constantly feeling "persecuted" or judged by persons and institutions in spite of little or thin evidence?

It's always like I need a target for my hostility/blame. The target can be a person, a group of people, an institution, or sometimes, all of U.S. society. Previously, it was often my parents, who were actually blameworthy, but many of my other targets don't deserve it. I feel the need to compulsively criticize, almost never people to their face, unless I've been dating them; then, yes. When someone or something becomes a target, whether it is a girlfriend or a group of others, the person or institution becomes the object of passive-aggressive behavior, constant criticism, and occasionally, open hostility. But I dislike open confrontation so tend to avoid it as much as possible.

I am also unbelievably jealous of many people. The hostility doesn't necessarily come from NPD (though it might? I don't know). It seems like it could also come from a persecution complex -- maybe a different expression of what leads to avoidant traits?

Anyway, I would like to include an illustration to illustrate the point I was trying to make with this thread about Asperger's being an incorrect diagnosis.


To me this sounds mostly negativistic.
But it's hard to tell, because I'm neither a psychiatrist, nor do I know you in person.
But from what I read here, it sounds mostly negativistic for me, but you also sound very analytical for me, what's very autistic (not just autistic, but for autistics it's very common).


This makes sense. I am pretty convinced now. Negativism would also explain why I was (mis)diagnosed with Avoidant Personality Disorder based on tendencies during a short period of time when I was very depressed. In reality, the vacillation between withdrawal and covert defiance/simmering hostility--the whole picture--is consistent with Negativistic PD.

It makes sense how it could be confused with traits of Antisocial PD, AvPD, Compensatory NPD, Petulant BPD, and even Bipolar Disorder based on limited information.

Now that I think back, others have frequently described me as "passive-aggressive." My mother denies it, but others have definitely done so. Even people here have caught the hints. I think it was you, Raziel, who brought to my attention a PD of whose existence I was not aware (since it's only in the appendix of the DSM). So thank you. I am pretty convinced this is either on-target or close to it.

Now that I think about, I do seethe with resentment at demands and obligations under some circumstances. It doesn't have to be under all circumstances. When I am at work, I have no problem being a dutiful worker. When I am expected, in other circumstances, to do painful or busy work, such as on the law review at my school, or non-animal-related chores at home when I was growing up, I tend towards classic passive-aggressive behavior.

A lot of my behavior that looks impulsive, such as keying cars, is really not. My antisocial behavior is far more calculated and attempted secret than others who engage in such behavior. This is far more consistent with Negativism than it is with a Borderline, who simply can't control himself/herself and probably doesn't avoid consequences as well as I do either. I also have few, few outward expressions of rage, which is inconsistent with BPD or NPD. But I am often boiling inside with hostility, which causes me to engage in vindictive or antisocial behaviors, but usually as covertly as possible.

PA-PD would also fit with my extremely authoritarian religious home environment growing up since such a home environment has often been documented as leading to PA-PD.



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27 Apr 2013, 3:14 pm

Tryrion I have to go to work so cannot write much but extreme negative emotions is a part of all kinds of psychological disorders, so I recommend to scratch the word negativism off your list.

Re BPD, yes, the stuff Raziel quoted was great, but that kind of description even though very thorough and wonderful in its thoroughness is still just a sketch, but I did not ever see your risk taking as impulsive, and yet your description of the risk taking is what first clued me into the BPD. It is because it is a bridge between two worlds and yet not being in either one exactly, but being between is exciting and releases energy. That is imo indicative of that particular disorder.



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27 Apr 2013, 7:36 pm

littlebee wrote:
Tryrion I have to go to work so cannot write much but extreme negative emotions is a part of all kinds of psychological disorders, so I recommend to scratch the word negativism off your list.

Re BPD, yes, the stuff Raziel quoted was great, but that kind of description even though very thorough and wonderful in its thoroughness is still just a sketch, but I did not ever see your risk taking as impulsive, and yet your description of the risk taking is what first clued me into the BPD. It is because it is a bridge between two worlds and yet not being in either one exactly, but being between is exciting and releases energy. That is imo indicative of that particular disorder.


Maybe. Though some of that behavior is fueled by resentment at persons and institutions. This could be BPD. It could be Passive-Aggressive. It's interesting that the DSM IV criteria for Negativistic PD focus primarily on work obligations rather than interpersonal resentment/criticism. So, in order to be diagnosed, one must meet 5/8 while I meet a mere 2/8.

But of the work-group proposed definition of the DSM IV, I meet most of the criteria:

passive resistance to fulfilling social and occupational tasks through procrastination
and inefficiency [maybe]
• complaints of being misunderstood, unappreciated, and victimized by others;
• sullenness, irritability, and argumentativeness in response to expectations;
• angry and pessimistic attitudes toward a variety of events;

• unreasonable criticism and scorn toward those in authority;
• envy and resentment toward those who are more fortunate;

• self-definition as luckless in life and an inclination to whine and grumble about being
jinxed;
• alternating behavior between hostile assertion of personal autonomy and dependent
contrition



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27 Apr 2013, 11:43 pm

Schizotypal PD:

(1) ideas of reference (excluding delusions of reference) (no)
(2) odd beliefs or magical thinking that influences behavior and is inconsistent with subcultural norms (e.g., superstitiousness, belief in clairvoyance, telepathy, or "sixth sense"; in children and adolescents, bizarre fantasies or preoccupations) (yes)
(3) unusual perceptual experiences, including bodily illusions
(no)
(4) odd thinking and speech (e.g., vague, circumstantial, metaphorical, overelaborate, or stereotyped) (yes)
(5) suspiciousness or paranoid ideation (yes)
(6) inappropriate or constricted affect (yes)
(7) behavior or appearance that is odd, eccentric, or peculiar (yes)
(8) lack of close friends or confidants other than first-degree relatives (yes)
(9) excessive social anxiety that does not diminish with familiarity and tends to be associated with paranoid fears rather than negative judgments about self (yes)

That's 7.

I wonder if BPD w/ passive-aggressive traits + Schizotypal PD is the way to go. The two very, very often go together. That would make perfect sense with the misdiagnosis of ASD and the Nonverbal Learning Disorder as well.

Now that I look at how I answered the ink blot test with my psychologist several weeks ago, having no idea what it even was, Schizotypal and BPD together make sense.



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28 Apr 2013, 12:01 am

littlebee wrote:
Tryrion I have to go to work so cannot write much but extreme negative emotions is a part of all kinds of psychological disorders, so I recommend to scratch the word negativism off your list.


You have the same problem with Borderline. Emotion disregulation is a symptoms of all kind of disorders, that's why it's so highly overdiagnosed or missdiagnosed.

Tyri0n wrote:
I wonder if BPD w/ passive-aggressive traits + Schizotypal PD is the way to go. The two very, very often go together. That would make perfect sense with the misdiagnosis of ASD and the Nonverbal Learning Disorder as well.


I don't think that borderline and schizotypal go that often together and that the combination is overdiagnosed by some: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personalit ... _disorders

Actually schizotypal has a symptom overlapp with paranoid, schizoid avoidant and borderline PD.

By the way when it's really schizotypal, ever thought of it that your symptoms might be paranoia towards other people?

The World Health Organization's ICD-10 lists paranoid personality disorder as (F60.0) Paranoid personality disorder.[5]
It is characterized by at least three of the following:
* excessive sensitivity to setbacks and rebuffs;
* tendency to bear grudges persistently, i.e. refusal to forgive insults and injuries or slights;
* suspiciousness and a pervasive tendency to distort experience by misconstruing the neutral or friendly actions of others as hostile or contemptuous;
* a combative and tenacious sense of personal rights out of keeping with the actual situation;
* recurrent suspicions, without justification, regarding sexual fidelity of spouse or sexual partner;
* tendency to experience excessive self-importance, manifest in a persistent self-referential attitude;
* preoccupation with unsubstantiated "conspiratorial" explanations of events both immediate to the patient and in the world at large.


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