NTs DO THINGS with conversation...

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OK. I think I get it. It seems like your example conversation is more about communication styles – indirect versus direct.

I certainly agree that:
a) Some people are definitely better at communicating in a more indirect fashion than others
b) Some people are able to translate another’s indirect communication better than others

I, myself, hate indirect communication. As oftentimes, you have no idea what the other person is actually saying. It’s an incredibly inefficient way of exchanging information.

By the way, I imagine, if I was in the same situation (that is, we were walking near my house and I didn’t want that person to come inside), I would simply ask, “Where is your car parked”. I definitely would not say, “Oh, there’s my house. I don’t want you to come in”. As that would be rude. And I dislike being rude (as I don’t like others to be rude to me).

Excellent post

You're spot on, as far as I can tell.

I half realized this many years ago,
and it helps to see this all written out in plain English for me (us).

Though I suspect that sometimes NTs are just looking for information,
but their subconscious (depending on how you react) will translate that information you give them into a "doing",
or a goal. Like a refusal to provide information will be seen as a direct threat against that NT.
Which is why I've stopped almost all unnecessary interactions with NTs, because of this ape-ish, atavistic reactionary behavior that I just can't deal with. Even with NT females their stone-age reactions to simple conversation or questions scares the ever lovin' crap outta me. I feel sometimes that if I continue interacting with them I will end up in a torture room, or a witch-burning stake. Which, unfortunately, is not far from the truth. We are after all the very same species that conducted the Salem Witch Trials, and in Europe, the Grand Inquisition. Seems that's the ultimate goal of NTs, to run society into a superstitious rut where you can burn your neighbor in a bon-fire just because you don't like him/her.

Yes I think so too.



I would probably say something like, oh! I wish I could ask you to come inside, but I'm already so tired this evening (or house is a mess or whatever). And I would mean exactly what I said, but the other person would probably read some other kind of motivation into my saying that, such as that I meant that I'm tired of being around them, or that I'm hiding something in my house that I don't want them to see (other than a literal mess).

It's a very valid point that's been raised, for me too conversations are more about an information exchange and I am often quite oblivious to the implications: Yes I think for NT general conversation (as opposed to a deliberate debate on a subject) are doing focused with a different agenda behind it rather than a simple info exchange

That is the big problem for me: If I suspect that they mean something different than they have said, I will get the interpretation wrong.

In Moondust's example, if I recognized that there was some other message than the question, I would suspect the person was saying, "I don't want you to walk with me. I don't like you."

Likewise, when I say things, it often seems to me that people invent exotic new meanings for what I said that have nothing to do with me. Sometimes I make a joke and people think I am being serious. Sometimes I will say something like "Where are you going?" because I am wondering exactly that and they will respond as if I had said something completely different.

I know that people are often doing something else, but I don't know what it is, exactly.

As far as I remember, I've not seen the thread before......hmmm.....a search of its pages seems to show I didn't post in it before, and I guess if I'd read it I would have posted. 2009 is a long time ago, so it's hard to be sure. I come and go a bit on WP. Sorry I'm a little late

Incidentally, I recall that Greentea used to have an avatar that was a drawing of what looked like a bull in a china shop, with a speech balloon and some words I couldn't quite read. Assuming I remembered it right, what were they?

I think with the "where are you going?" example I'd have just replied literally, "to my car," thus escaping embarrassment by way of my own ignorance and Aspie literal thinking style. A little knowledge of NTs can be a dangerous thing.

Oh, that avatar...I would've never remembered it if you hadn't mentioned it! Yes, that was before the "Goddess of Wisdom" one. I don't remember what it said either, except that it defined me so perfectly.

Rocket, indirect speech is only one of the ways of doing things with conversation. In a nutshell, because I have to run to work now, there are many other ways. Eg. pauses, intonation, volume, choice of vocabulary, choice of topic, and many others.

Dianthus, your post is a description of myself:

That's exactly the kind of thing I have a tendency to do...if I figure out the underlying meaning of what the person is saying, I call it right out in the open and respond to it directly. When they are really expecting me to respond indirectly, without saying the thing they are avoiding saying.

Wow, this gives me such a headache.

And if I can't figure out the real, underlying meaning, I tend to want to keep talking and driving at it, until the other person comes right out and says it.

Do you think that my manager thought I was trying to imply something in this situation?

She was showing me and another girl how to use the cash register. I really wanted to be the one do it when she was done as my next task, so I interrupted her to blurt out "Can I do it now?" She got upset and said I was being rude again (I was trying to be enthusiastic!)

I have a feeling I was "doing something" because I didn't say anything rude. What do you think?

I've bolded the thing you were doing. And, to go into more detail, perhaps you seemed to be telling her that she wasn't instructing properly, i.e. she was talking for too long without giving you a turn or something like that.

That would be my guess.

It's for this reason I don't like the conventional practice of people asking each other what they do for a living.

I realize it's commonly accepted as an ice-breaker, a conversation starter, something strangers introduced in a social setting usually ask each other almost immediately.

But I think it's a way people instantly JUDGE each other.

They're "doing things" with that information:

Deciding what your income must be
Deciding what your education must have been
Deciding what TYPE of person you must be

And taking all that and deciding whether or not you're worth their time, or have enough in common to become friends with.

Which is ridiculous because statistically only a tiny fraction of working people actually do for a living something that really does say a lot about who they actually are and what they feel passionately about, as a person.

Very few people statistically are actually musicians, artists, actors, novelists, historical researchers, archeologists, etc. Most of us have to work in boring office jobs, retail, or a mundane trade to "make a living."

The REAL you is revealed in questions such as "What are your interests, hobbies, passions?"

So I hate "What do you do for a living?" because that person is about to pigeonhole me into a whole bunch of things, and miss out on finding who the REAL me is, just because of what I have to do to pay bills.

I think many managers have the idea that they plan and direct and the people who report to them obey.

You are supposed to just do what they say, not ask to do something else. They might say it's rude because they perceive it as a sort of challenge to their authority.

Here's my previous avatar:

https://jeffpelline.files.wordpress.com ... n130l1.jpg

Thanks! The copyright blurb obliterates some of the words, but I've guessed it....."it's because I'm a bull, isn't it." It sums up a common Aspie-NT experience rather well I think.

I was tempted to post something like "an accusation of rudeness is pretty rich coming from a freaking manager." To put it more politely, I think there's more going on in the world of work than autistic social blunders.

I also find it uncomfortable when people ask me what I do for a living. While I can answer the question, I have a hard time describing my job without going into all the details of what I do.

By the way, I never ask someone else what they do for a living (before they ask me). As I find the question a bit intrusive. With that being said, I don’t mind when others tell me what they do for a living. As I can always come up with questions to ask them about their job to keep them talking (so they can carry the conversation and all I have to do is listen and learn).

Yes, basically. One primary function of the hive mind algorithms is to stratify individual components of society. Some people call it "separation". Another primary function is to protect itself.