First time in history!! !! The NT/AS open hotline ! !! !! !

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It is true that the one who lies succumb to illusions about him/herself, but please, tell this to NTs...

Most of autists recognize having big troubles with lying. Our honesty causes us a lot of trouble. We are so far from manipulation, that it takes us a long tough experience, only to understand "what is manipulation". Our innocence unfortunately attracts manipulators, which makes our life even harder.

We are suffering a lot from lies and manipulation.
I find it really unfair to accuse us of lying and manipulating. Really now!

If I were you, I would also make an effort not to charge autists with defaults they typically do NOT have.
Why? because autists are suffering from lies and manipulation all their life, and if you eventually tell them that they are are liars, racists and manipulators... this is a big lie and this can raise a big frustration and frustration may lead to hate and violence (this is a AS/NT general rule). I am sure that this is not what you want.

I don't like hate and violence. Peace and love is better for Everybody.

I have just read in another thread that one person on the spectrum often does not say in therapy what he actually means, because of what he calls his "chameleon-like disposition". He just tries to fulfill the expectations of others. He then committs to things he actually feels not motivated to do, and which he later does not do.

People issues or emotional questions are cognitively very challenging for people on the spectrum, and as many think they have to answer as quickly as neurotypical people do, they get into the habit of saying what is expected. I think it depends a lot on habit (that is the reaction of ones family or surrounding in childhood) and also on ones faking skills whether this coping strategy is used a lot or not. But I consider this form of lying an extremely common phenomena for people on the spectrum.

I also like the people on the spectrum much better who are very direct, take at the limit everything at the face-value, and very down-to earth, even if they go harshly against any speculation about other people s feelings or thoughts even from NT people. Unfortunately not all Aspergers are as eccentric as this.

I already said that some Aspergers have big trouble with lying when younger, but learn it later in life ("who learned how to deceive late in life, is preceded by the repuation of being honest" said Goethe, and he was a great lyer when older). All people are born honest. NT kids learn much earlier how to deceive, but it is a skill Aspergers can learn very well later, too.

How sure are you that the manipulators you met in your life are not on the spectrum? Couldnt higher-fucntioning Asperger after all understand much better which person is suitable as a victim and how to proceed? (Apart from lacking the cognitive empathy to understand the full extent of the harm they do.)

Do you see the difference between:

- saying what you are expected to say or not saying what you think in order to fit in among others (NTs) so that you are not rejected
This is simply social rules (which NTs follow naturally).

- saying something or not saying something in order to hide your objectives, deceive others and get advantage of them
This is manipulation.

It's really not the same things you are mixing. Is your mind confused?

...or is it manipulation against autism? Do you think the "stupid disabled autist would not see your game"?

Please refer a little bit more to what I have said: that Aspergers lie more, not less than NTs. Including all the arguments and examples I have given.

I can add one more lie: my Aspie friend was told by her father, not to take her incontinent dog into his house. She did it nevertherless, the dog pissed on the carpet, she wiped it a little of with a wet tissue and left the house together with me quickly when her father came back. Her father comes after us, confrontoing her that her doh had pissed on the carpet. She said, no she did not take the dog in. He is quite angry, and although pretty sure, gets a little unsure, if he is right. He then asks me. I say that the dog did piss on the carpet. My aspie friend later asked me why I did not lie.

I hope the pissing dog problems get solved. I wish that your "Aspie" friend could repond to your accusations.

Not being able to lie is typical to Aspergers and part of the diagnosis.

Everyone lies, including aspies. Typically aspies lie less often but that isn't the case with everyone. It is certainly possible to be an aspie and a compulsive liar.

A compulsive liar should not be diagnosed Aspie, it does not stick to the diagnosis.

A person does not need to meet all of the criteria to be an aspie. That and lying can also be a learned behavior. I agree though most aspies are less likely to lie than their NT counterparts.

So as you say, not lying is a criteria of the diagnosis.

I suppose you're right.;;; But I've gotten caught doing spontaneous things several times, and since I am so quiet, people usually don't notice when I'm near them, so I thought I would have caught someone by now.;;

But, if it's something most normal people do, why doesn't everyone just do it weather or not anyone is watching?

Categorizing is a big problem for people with Aspergers. Sigh ...
Then differential diagnostic is a big aspie shrink BS, partly set up to better hide the true links between different mental health issues to other people and to oneself.

Aspergers are less good at pretending well as children, because they engage less or not at all in role play. But at least the very high functioning ones can easily catch up when older. I had been a tutor to a little hyperactive girl who I believe to be on the spectrum. She tried lying or pretending to be sad at the age of 10 at the level my NT child did at the age of 4 or 5, maybe she had a little bit more trouble with it than him, but I am sure she had been getting better at it later on. That Aspie friend of mine who bluntly lied that her dog had not pissed on her father s carpet told me that she tried to cheat people as an adolescent with a friend of hers (little thefts or cheating in order to get some money or something). I think still today she is not fully aware of the consequences, and therefore quite indulgent with her misdemeanour. She also lies now from time to time, little social lies when she comes too late (which she does very often), a little less well than an NT, but still good enough to fool most people that dont know her that well, but she also bigger lies the dog lie.

She is not lying that often, because she is not such a good liar. I think she was educated well, and that her parents curbed a possible tendency to get better at lying.

So you cant say that Aspergers dont lie. That is against evidence.

As for compulsive lying: A lack of cognitive empathy makes a very good reason for being less reluctant to lie more often. Then Aspergers are faking all the time to be NT, and manage to do so, not because they truly understand what is going on, but because they try to conform to the expectations other people have. That is - for me as an NT very obviously - the royal road to compulsive lying for some very high-functioning people on the spectrum under certain circumstances.

LaetitiaBlabla: You cant deny the last 3 claims of mine, because they are all very logically deduced. I know that many Aspergers prefer logic only as long as it does not interfere with their emotional preferences (see your last post ), but try to be a bit rational, please ! !!

Here's my take on the Aspie lying thing, as a NT with a lot of you in my life:

I think Aspies have different strategies for deciding how to squeeze themselves into the mold of society.

Some people reject the meaningless social norms and instead err on the side of open truthfulness. Also some people in this group really struggle when they try to fake "normal", either because they haven't had a lot of practice, or because it's just too MUCH for them to keep up that charade, or of course they've thought it through and decided it just isn't worth it for them.

Then there are others who are more focused on "passing". They fake not being affected by things, they grit their teeth and force themselves to tolerate extreme discomfort. They've gotten proficient at memorizing the "right" words and behaviors for situations and executing them. And from my experience, they do it either because it was pounded into them, or they judge the benefits of doing so outweigh the costs of not.

Obviously there are pros and cons to each of these approaches. To pass or not to pass - an endless discussion.

But which group lies more? I'd say it's pretty clear that inherent in "passing" is pretending to be okay when you're not, and that's not truthful, okay sure. But seriously I can't blame someone for choosing to fake it in order to have things go smoother with us NTs. I've seen the disgusting reactions people have to the most harmless quirks. It makes me sick how much value people place on "acting normal". At the same time, I have a social psychology phd, and so I know how primal it is for people to want to identify in-group/out-group members, so even though it doesn't make sense when scrutinized, a NT being suspicious of someone acting unusual really is a rational way to behave (evolutionary perspective).

So I guess I just get it either way. I love people on the spectrum, it's just something that's in me. I love the way I can let go of all my impression management and be open about my quirks and encourage the other to tell me theirs too. When dating I'm happy to follow their rules. You want me to wash me feet before I come into your room? Not a big deal. Why the hell not? I've never found the demands to be excessive, at worst just hard to remember. But I totally get why you let me into your room a dozen times with gross feet, because most people wouldn't respond well to that (when I just think it's funny, usually). And yea, that was a lie. Pretending to be okay with my gross feet. But who could blame someone for making that call, just to find their way and get along?

Whew long post. I have a lot of thoughts on this one

Making this thread active again because it looks awesome.

Question for a NT:

How much of social interaction comes naturally and how much is learned? Does socializing come naturally enough that you don't even have to think about it when you are doing it?

I think it's a grey area. Some people are introverts other are extroverts. Most of the time i have to think. For example if a colleague just returned from vacation I will have to remember that it's polite to ask him about his trip. But once I do conversation flows freely. In a corporate setting where politics happen it takes effort to suck up to people and say what they want to hear. Btw I am an introvert and have been called an Aspie in the past.

A lot of it is learned and some of it has to do with overcoming social instincts. Children have to be taught to behave properly at the dinner table, not to bite one another or take one another's toys, not to be too blunt and honest. To say "hello" and "goodbye," wave their hands, shake hands. Not to pick their nose or chew with their mouths open, to be polite and share and many other things.

A lot of it is also picked up by observation, watching what the parents do.

And then, a lot of it is learned by experience. I've known some extroverts who are remarkably good with others and they've focused a lot of attention on how to be friendly, make small talk, deal with tough situations, motivate people, etc. NT's may have a big advantage here, but it really isn't easy for many NT's! People devote a tremendous amount of mental effort to figuring out how to interact socially with others.