This video is just disgraceful to the autistic community.

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I guess I can say it one more time:

Once you get beyond the video, you get the fact that violence against disabled children by their own parents is normalized as sympathetic and understandable. As one study I linked, the sympathetic, "compassionate" portrayal of one parent who murdered his daughter in Canada led to an upsurge in similar killings over the next several years.

I understand people go to dark places. I have had major depressive disorder for a decade and a half. But I also understand that by making it more socially acceptable to talk about killing your disabled children, by constantly giving sympathy to parents who actually do kill their children, and creating an atmosphere where critiquing actual violence or talking about said violence in such a way that makes the parents responsible into the victims, is simply unwelcome.

As with the stories I linked earlier in the thread - killing an abled child brings condemnation down on the parents (especially mothers). Killing a disabled child brings out narratives about how the child may not have been expected to live long, or detailed descriptions of how disabled the child was, and how the parents didn't have enough support (even when they do) and how they were burdened with so much (even when they have support from family, from government agencies, etc) that they were left with no choice but to kill their child (even though they had options).

Everyone's quick to imagine what it's like to be the parent in these situations, to sympathize with the parent, to explain how hard it is for the parent. There's been such a bizarre exclusion in this thread. Does anyone sympathize with the child in this situation? What it's like to be the child in this situation? To be treated like a burden? To be discussed as if you're not present? To have parents who might attempt to kill you or succeed, and then have the press compassionately explain to the world that your life was too tragic to be worth living anyway?

That statement was not made in a vacuum, but in a culture that simply does not particularly value disabled people's lives.

It is understandable that the mother wanted to protect her daughter from a bad school experience, and she felt so strongly about it she was willing to end both their lives to prevent that. And it is understandable that she needed to talk about her experience, and others may identify with it.

But there is no need and no excuse for her to have said this in the presence of her daughter! The child, autistic or not, is far too young to be able to handle this. It is extremely stressful for any young child, even an average, normal healthy child, to know that their parents are or have ever been in such a desperate state of mind, so much at a loss to cope with the circumstances of their life that they have contemplated suicide. The child is completely dependent on the parent as a caretaker and needs to feel that the parent is capable, even if the parent doesn't always feel like they are capable. This is the most fundamental need of a child, to know they can depend on someone to take care of them. Without this the child can never feel secure.

For a parent to talk about suicide in front of a child, utterly destroys the child's sense of security (if the child even had any real sense of security up to that point). But it is even worse if the parent is talking about suicide as a solution to a parenting dilemma. The child will not only fear for the parent's general sense of stability and ability to cope with life, the child will also feel responsible for the parent's inability to cope.

To take this yet another step further, and actually speak of murdering the child to resolve the parenting dilemma, is exponentially more damaging. Now the child not only fears losing a caretaker...the child fears losing her own life.

Then to top it all off, the mother makes it clear that she did not kill herself and her disabled daughter, because she has another child who is not disabled. This again gives the message to the disabled child that she is the one at fault for her mother's instability. The child will internalize all of this as a feeling of being defective, even dangerous to those who would care for her.

It is unnecessary and self-indulgent for this mother to say such things in front of her child for an interview. These are the kind of statements that can haunt a child for the rest of their life. This was not a situation of a mother losing control and saying something in a real-time scenario that she might regret later. This is a mother reflecting back on a situation that already happened and neglecting to consider the impact her comments might be having on her daughter.

Autism shouldn't be

Parents vs. children with autism vs. adults with autism.

Parents could be instead of buying into the whole poor me scheme for money, advocating for their children and understanding it's not their child's fault for what mean people say to you and your child when you are out and about. That is THEIR own doing.

Some of you act as though in order to have an autistic child you must think about some horrible things you want to do to them, otherwise you must not understand. Not all parents with autistic children want to hurt them. These negative campaigns are doing more harm than good.

The one who runs autism speaks. His own grandchild. This negative campaigning is turning into a parent vs. child. Instead shouldn't it be advocating for more understanding and acceptance for the children? This is fuel for more violence against your autistic children. More strangers saying mean things to you with your child because not everyone feels sympathetic when they see the mother talk about driving her daughter off a bridge but instead start thinking "Ah ha!" refrigerator mom!

If you side with the parent only. Guess what? You're doing exactly what you're accusing Verdandi of doing.

Murder is murder. All this talk of lack of resources even with aspie kids who are not severe yet I know a couple of parents who did it all by themselves and exhibited love and acceptance while correcting meltdowns in their own way. Guess what? Their child has went from not hugging, no eye contact, barely speaking, meltdowns, fear of transitions to "Where's the autism?" The child is talking, engaging, hugs, smiles, no longer meltdowns. Would you really accept advice from a parent like that or would you say, nuh uh...what about those who are way more severe?

Yeah well, there are complaints from parents about their high functioning autistic children as if all hope is lost, give up. That's not right. People who think that is the right attitude might benefit from thinking about their own childhood and remembering what you felt like as a child. Did you have parents that loved and supported you? Did they encourage you? Did you get to go to college? Did you find a job easily? Was abuse minimal or non-existent? Did your parents buy you your first car? Help you get your first apartment or house? Help you develop so you could be independent?

If you can identify with that now think about this.

How would you feel if you were a child and you were told you would never do anything with your life. This started when you were a child. Nothing you did was ever good enough. Other siblings were treated better meanwhile you were treated like a second class citizen. Your parents decided you weren't worth spending much focus on. Your parents thought of you as too stupid to go to college. Never believed in you. Slapped you, hit you, deprived you of food because you were limited and they were trying to teach you a lesson only to send you to bed hungry. You've managed to live through suicide. You finally get fed up and leave never coming back. Even though you have proven through actions you are capable, they still don't think so.


Can you even put yourself in that position?


If you can't because you haven't been there yourself. Welcome to the black and white thinking club!





I'd be willing to work with parents and their child but on the condition that the parent will not sneer in my direction, underestimate and act prejudice as I've had enough of that in my lifetime to fill up a well of all the tears I've cried behind closed doors so somebody wouldn't kick my ass for crying.

There's another question to be asked that is hardly ever answered yes, when the topic is discussed, and that is do you know what it is like to be both?

I skimmed the thread, and noticed one individual that provided that answer.

If ASD's are truly genetically based disorders, that answer is probably yes, for many parents that have adjusted and adapted to their condition, some with no idea they have one.

At times what is within oneself is not fully recognized in one's parents, or in oneself.

I experienced autism as a child, but could never fully understand whose life was harder, until I had a child that was much more impaired than myself. My child's life was much harder than mine, but it brought me awareness that until then, I couldn't possibly understand, how lucky I was to have a parent that could tolerate my self absorbed behavior in adolescence.

Back in the days when I was 2 and my sister was 1, there were no support sites, or emotional support from a Father who was more like me than I was willing to admit until decades later.

My mother threatened suicide when my Autistic sister and I were about 1 and 2, in a moment of weakness and fraility, in her own dark moment of the soul; my father responded, in his usual calm manner, go ahead. That response pushed her will to survive.

The gentleman expressing his life experiences in that video is only reflective of his life experience, as with the parents in the other video, some that very well could have autistic traits themselves.

There is no stereotype, that can be established in any parent/child relationship.

This is the full response that Ms. Singer provided related to the controversial video:

http://autismsciencefoundation.wordpress.com/2009/09/09/speaking-out-about-autism-every-day/


.

The context of her irrational feelings were based partly on having an autistic brother that suffered in an institution.

The Autistic gentleman per the video you provided expressed his own personal dark moment of the soul by issuing a public death threat, over issues disconcerting to him.

I can judge neither dark moment of the soul, because I lived neither of those lives.

Objectively speaking both expressions are irrational, and provided in public context, in support of others that have experienced similiar dark aspects of life.

Life's not easy for anyone. Everyone is unique. As human beings all we can do is try to understand others, in as honest a way as possible, and hope there is someone that will understand us back.

My father never had the ability to connect to any of us, trapped in his own personal version of autism. I will never know his internal pain or suffering, because he can only express his feelings for his cats, similar to me.

Silence tells no story.

And understanding takes a tremendous amount of effort for some, more than others.

Words said were judged. Who it was said in front of was judged.
It's because of Lauren...the fact that I have another child..that I probably didn't do it.
(repeat it over and over in your head)

Aside from the shockumentary.

Her other two videos reveal more details about her personal experiences and it shows her in a more positive light. When watching that, I understood more. It's just not a mistake worth repeating in front of your child. I can also understand if the mother might think the daughter might not understand what she is saying because that is common.

One sentence, one mistake. Learning.

Relaying my own experience.

(WARNING: MAY MAKE YOU WANT TO TELL ME OFF FOR BLACK AND WHITE THINKING.)


What someone says if hurtful, I heard it.
I did not respond to it. Blank faced. Kept doing my own thing.

The emotional impact doesn't register until later.
Later, what the person had said was looping over and over in my head. Couldn't make it stop. I was a child and didn't have the coping skills I do now or the understanding that I do now about my own brain.

During the time of the looping, non-stop crying.
Person what ask back to back questions in a mean tone of voice of what's wrong with me now.

Made me cry more. Made me start to lose it a little.
The more the harsh tone of voice and back to back questioning occurred the more I lost control.

Person oblivious to why I was crying.
I could not tell the person.

Person also oblivious as to how their tone of voice affected me and how their scoldy questioning made me feel worse.

"Oh she's doing this again and there's no reason for it!"

The truth is, there was a reason. I have discovered the majority of people I have encountered can say something and then just pretend it didn't happen or they forget. If you don't demand an apology usually you don't get it. Some people don't like to acknowledge their own errors therefore forgetting it even happened. Meanwhile you have a very good memory for the things some people don't and it gets stuck looping over and over in your head.

It is not just challenging for one side, it's challenging for us all. The parents, the autistic child, the autistic adult.

Even though I remember alot. I still love those that hurt me.

When a person who can't stand repetition walks into a house with a song playing on a loop for the 10-20 seconds that fascinates the person who is in love with that loop, if that drives the other person crazy, how do you think the person would cope if words of what someone said, especially someone who was supposed to love you looped and sometimes those words were meanspirited?

pwned

Scientific evidence suggests that most filicide is associated with maternal mental illness. Those that don't seek support and get the help they need with their mental llnesses, per this research are more likely to be involved in such a situation.

And per other linked research below, effective coping mechanisms and the ability to find the support one needs when facing difficult circumstances is reflective of success in a parents ability to deal with the needs of an autistic child.

The founder of autism speaks written purpose for the organization was one of providing a voice for disenfranchised parents.

The ability to obtain the emotional support from a common community of individuals with similiar needs of support, that autism speaks serves for parents of autistic children, can't really be minimized in light of actual evidence of what may reduce the potential of filicide; good maternal mental health, and avenues for emotional support to enhance that mental health.

While wrong planet provides that resource for many higher functioning autistics and parents of autistic children, Autism Speaks has also made part of their focus, one of providing sites for community support among parents of autistic children.

Troubled thoughts are more likely to lead to troubled actions when avenues of emotional support are not available. While there is specific evidence that people find the autism everyday video very offensive, there is also specific evidence that others have gained emotional support from it.

People with thoughts of harming others and/or themselves are encouraged to seek professional help. That is an area of taboo discussion for many people, while others freely seek the help they need. Thoughts of harming oneself or one's child, is a good sign someone may be under the influence of mental illness.

I don't see that specific video as one that promotes the acceptability of violence against the disabled, it is the story of a troubled individual, that at one point admitted to having irrational thoughts of harming herself and her child, that gained solutions to her problems, that at one point she felt she could not overcome.

That's the good story; the bad story is the parent that never sought or could not find support from anyone, that performed an irrational act of violence, as a result of untreated mental illness.

The child should not have been present in the room during the interview, if there was the potential of sensitive issues like this discussed, but there was no evidence in that video that the child's interest was focused on the interview, that I could see, from the video presented here.

I was under the impression from a report in the past that a similiar commentary was expressed when a child was sitting in an adults lap.

I'm glad that was not the case, in this video.


http://www.science20.com/science_autism_spectrum_disorders/blog/when_parents_kill_filicide_usually_accompanied_mental_illness





So it appears that parents that are seeking the support from each other, about the difficulties they face raising their autistic children, on these support sites, are engaging in an activity that has an evidenced track record, in improving their ability to cope, and be better parents of autistic children.

The video serves part of this purpose for some. That is also evidenced, by the response to the video by many parents of autistic children.

If there was a promotion of the acceptability of actually killing a disabled person by an autism speaks video, as you alluded to from a different link and situation, that would be an entirely different scenario, that is not acceptable as far as I am concerned, under any circumstance.

I linked this page earlier, which discusses mercy killings of disabled children, and refers to the same 1969 study by Resnick.

That paper points out a direct link between a sympathetic portrayal of a parent who murdered his disabled daughter and a 45% increase in so-called "mercy killings" over several years following. Are you actually arguing that sympathetic portrayals of the idea of mercy killing disabled children has no impact on how people view the concept of mercy killing, making it seem to be more acceptable, more sympathetic, more reasonable?

From that paper:

And this, the first paragraph of which I posted previously:



The paper discusses this concept at some length, before pointing out the rise in similar homicides in Canada after the sympathetic portrayal of Tracy Latimer's murder as a "mercy killing."

When I say putting these views out there, and normalizing them, leads to a likelihood of more deaths, I am not simply making this up to bolster my argument. I am referring to actual research which has shown that it works as I've been saying it works throughout this thread. I did not say the video directly and explicitly promotes violence toward disabled people (is it really necessary to refer to people as "the disabled?" People are more than their disabilities, right? And saying "the disabled" kind of elides the fact that we're talking about violence against disabled children - it's depersonalized and faceless, whereas saying "disabled children" makes it clear we're talking about extremely vulnerable people). What I said was that sympathetic framingof attitudes that lead to violence and the violence itself encourages violence. "I thought of driving off the bridge with my daughter" becomes a moment of sympathy for the mother, and the idea of wanting to kill one's disabled children is normalized yet another step. The idea that portraying violence against a particular group of people as understandable and sympathetic encourages violence against those people is neither new nor should it be controversial. Nor is saying that the same as saying those portrayals are explicitly encouraging people to grab their guns and start shooting said group of people up.

As far as using mental illness as the reason goes, I should point something else out as well:

Defense by reason of insanity is actually fairly difficult to get, and generally means longer imprisonment for the perpetrator, only in a hospital instead of a prison. Also,

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1525086/



Generally speaking? Mental illness does not cause violent behavior.

Anyway, I asked a question in my earlier post:



which appears to have gone ignored or unanswered.

TheyGoMew asked:



I hope, when all my points are ignored yet again because of another round of "but what about how hard it is for the parents?" I can just walk away from this thread, because this is getting downright ridiculous.

Anyway, let me break down what I'm saying:

* I am not saying all parents are bad and unsympathetic
* I am not saying that parents are bad for being frustrated, exhausted, and overworked by dealing with their children
* I am not saying that parents deserve no sympathy for being in such a situation
* I am not saying that the woman who said that in that video is evil, but I do stand by saying what she did in front of her daughter was abusive
* If you haven't killed your children, or discussed having seriously considered killing them and/or yourself right in front of them, I'm not talking about you and I never was talking about you.
* All I am asking is: "Can you sympathize with the children?" This is not "but think of the children!" which is a trite and saccharine tactic intended to emotionally manipulate people into policies and charities that they may otherwise not support. This is, "but why is it that it is so very easy to find examples of people sympathizing with abled children who are victims of violence and murder, but so very, very hard to find examples of people sympathizing with disabled children who are victims of violence and murder?"

And people keep answering, "but the parents have it hard too!" Missing the point. I guess apples and oranges is right.

From reviewing the video, it is definitely not a good thing that the child was in the room, when their was the potential for discussion like this.

However, it appears there was no result of harm to the child, because the child did not appear to be focused on the conversation, some distance from the actual conversation.

The internet is forever though, and it is a bit disconcerting that the child could potentially find it on her own later if she gains the ability to use a computer.

The parent seems pretty smart in this case, a media expert, so I would hope she would make sure her child understands the context of the video, before she finds it on her own.

Not good I think for other children to see it, without guidance from Parents to properly understand the context of what was said in the video, some autistic people do see things as applying directly to them, moreso than some others, when they are not intended that way.

I could easily imagine an autistic child hearing it in the background, taking it to mean that parents literally are planning on killing their autistic children, and being concerned that this might mean their parents are going to do it too.

That's a real concern of unwitting promotion of it here, which will likely continue into the distant future, that I can't remember anyone discussing in detail, when these videos are presented.

It's a site that autistic children do frequent, but that is the price of unlimited access to information, that goes well beyond the ISP fee.

Autism Speaks did remove the active link to the 13 minute video version from their main site; it appears they understand this concern to some extent.

It really is hard to find unless someone knows it exists, and types the name into Google to locate it in the archives of the autism speaks you tube video site.

And of course that much easier when it is provided here, and highlighted for direct access for an autistic audience.

I would have likely never have known it existed if I never visited this site.

As you point out Ms. Singer does have other videos she has made, and they do describe her love and the value she sees in her autistic child, but as in any other media environment, the news determined as negative tends to be what is highlighted most, just a part of human nature, I think.

For me, the I Am Autism video was more potentially disturbing for an autistic child exposed to it, who has a greater understanding and awareness of their environment, than is assumed.

Pretty Scary stuff for a child that might not have the ability to understand the intended context of that presentation


Challenging for all of us is a statement that I think, there is enough objective evidence, that everyone could agree upon.

I am not sure how I would feel. I don't know if I be willing to say in front of my child how I want to kill myself and him so end our suffering. My kid is one BTW and I can't believe I once wanted to have an abortion with him because I was scared of having another miscarriage and having to suffer again. But I kept the pregnancy and I am glad I had him so I don't see why that upset him. I think it should make him glad I decided to have him and being brave going through it despite my fear. But honestly I probably didn't truly want one because I wanted a baby too much.

Actually mental illness can cause violence. Look at schizophrenia, some of them are violent. Look at serial killers. I think people who enjoy killing is a mental illness. I also hear that hurting people to get your way is also a mental illness. Mental illness is like a spectrum. Some of it causes violence and some of it does not.


As for the other questions you (virdandi) and theygomew asked, I am finding them difficult to answer. Maybe I suffer from some black and white thinking but doesn't everyone?

With the lack of support ive had from the NHS over the years for my ~Aspergers syndrome here in Norwich i would love to set fire to the norwich mental health service.

A lot of this is believed in pop culture and reinforced in film and other forms of fiction, but, really - and I say this as someone who had a bipolar neighbor who during a manic phase assaulted and beat a woman so badly the police officer said he had never seen anything so brutal - people who are mentally ill including schizophrenics are less likely than NTs to be violent, and more likely to be victims of violence. This isn't an opinion that I just pulled out of the air, it's a statistical fact that is discussed in the study I linked when I made the statement.

Yes, some mental illnesses make people more dangerous (such as anti-social personality disorder and narcissistic personality disorder), but these are the exceptions, and not the rule, and even most of them never commit murder. Most of them are really unpleasant to be around and their social limitations actually cause them a lot of trouble. Some get by better, but... anyway, I think even they sometimes have more problems caused by their disorders than they cause.

But, I never said mentally ill people never commit violence. I said it was not particularly sound to claim that mental illness was the cause of particular kinds of violence when mental illness actually makes people less likely to commit acts of violence.



If you said it at this point, he probably doesn't understand and likely won't remember. I have memories from about 6 months of age, but I don't remember anything people said around me before I could talk.

But I think that an abortion comes across differently, and saying, "I was thinking about an abortion" versus, "I should have aborted you" are two very different statements.

I can only imagine what it's like to be a child with autism. I don't think anyone here has forgotten the children. I'm sorry for those of you who had bad experiences as children, I am.
Even in a totally well- functioning situation...I think if you live in a family that has children with disabilities you are going to get a rawer version of life. Sometimes things can get a little crazy. It's hard not to lose your cool when oldest son tries to hurt younger ones, or s**t gets spread on the floor or glass gets broken (lots of glass gets broken). Sometimes things get said you wished you hadn't. If my kids understand the things I've said to them that I've regretted, they would also have understood my apologies which always follow.
I still think those parents are being treated too harshly. I am thinking of the children and the parents. News flash... Parenting is not an exact science. Parents f**k up ALL THE TIME!! ! It's not all sunshine, lollipops and rainbows. If those kids grow up to be able to sit and watch that video with their parents, years from now, and they understand what was said... it can all be explained. None of those comments seem to me to come from a place of hate, disgust or shame. The pain they show is because they love their kids. I guess it's equally hard to be a child with autism and a parent, but just because we chose to be parents doesn't mean we have to give up the right to feel and express emotion, but yes, we need to think of the children's feelings as well. My brain hurts...

I completely agree the research that suggests mental illness generally speaking is not a cause of violent behavior and they are more likely to be victims.

However, a murder/suicide, in relation to filicide, is indeed directly linked to mental illness, per the research I provided.

Not my personal opinion, had no idea it was the case until I found the research that indicated this was the case, along with the other research that indicated the value of reaching out for support for parents of autistic children.

I used the word disabled children in direct response to your statement about violence against disabled children, that's the only reason I used the word disabled:



Ms. Singer was talking about an irrational thought she had in the past that she resolved through logical action. It's good that people that some people that are troubled with these thoughts don't hide them and do seek help.

It promotes the fact that some autistic parents are troubled like this and need help. Research shows that people that are troubled who seek support and receive it have better outcomes than those that don't seek help.

There is no evidence I have seen that her statement normalizes such an act as defensible, it might have actually motivated someone to seek counseling or support that are helpless, hopeless, and demonized by irrational thoughts like that, and actually prevented such an act.

Someone could decide that it was in defense of such an action, but Ms. Singer has made it clear that it wasn't.

It's not okay to kill anyone for any reason, but it is okay for someone to talk about irrational thoughts and reinforce the need for support/counseling. It's is a potential prevention for irrational actions.

And it's not okay to talk about it in front of a child, but there is no evidence in the video that the child was even paying attention to what was being said, that I can see. So, it's only speculation that it is even possible that any harm was done to that specific child in that specific video, by their prescence there.

It's more likely that autistic children that actually watch the video and pay attention to it, along with the I Am Autism Video, whom those videos are not intended for, not fully understanding the context, are potentially traumatized, I think.

I have imagined that scenario, that you illustrate well above, and sympathized with that potential harm from the first time I saw the I am Autism Video.

The only answer I can see for that is to restrict access to the videos for the children where possible.

I've lived some of the other description, and provided a small slice of my own childhood experiences. Every childhood is unique. some wonderful, some terrifying, it's not something specific to autistic parents or autistic children, though, that I can see, or directly related to the childhood experiences of any of the children in that video. One can imagine it, but there is no clear evidence of it, in the actual video, that I can see.

All that said, I don't disagree with any of the research that you provided, and as far as whether it is harder or easier for parents of autistic children, or autistic children, it's a pretty subjective analysis, that only those directly involved could provide insight for, in each specific case.

I don't think one can gain much specific insight, other than speculation on that, from the 7 minute video.