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Re; #2. How do you know the effort someone has put into "doing something about it?" how you you tell me that you understand my emotional suffering better than I do? And right here it looks like you are the one doing the blaming when possibly the people who are suffering are not blaming anyone, but rather trying to understand themselves?

I just came home and found a lot of drama on this thread and a lot of resentment and anger toward me and cross talking about me. One thing---if anyone does do this kind of negative cross talking about anyone on this system, let it be about me rather than someone else, as to me it is just ideas which are either true or are not. I do see people playing this game of five against one which imo is not a cool activity.

Re my own participation on this thread, I am surprised at the response. I thought this thread was going pretty well and thought I made some good points. There is bound to be some conflict at times when people disagree with ideas, but do not take it personally. Re my participation, I do not see anything wrong with what I said. My mind is clear, and anything I said is not because I am autistic but was just enquiry.

One thing which I have already mentioned I do see here is that some people are having difficulty grasping subtle points if it does not fit into their framework, but if the idea being presented by them is aimed to fit things into their own framework or subtract various context to make a framework they like, then they can deal in all kinds of slanting of material involving various subtleties. This is interesting. Anyway, I am going to continue parfticipating on this thread until/if it is closed, and I hope it is not.

Again, I do not find anything wrong with anything I wrote and do not think the reason I do not has anything to do with being autistic or not having social skills. Also I am writing with an altruistic motivation. If anyone wants to explain to me anything I am writing that is wrong, please do so, but do not deal in vague generalities. Be specific so I can get the point.

I think of the comments here are quite interesting. Verdandi and the other person, please do not fight as it will just get this thread closed.

Jen, what I wrote to you was very mild, imo, and definitely with an altruistic motivation, but everything cannot always be sugar coated. Re bullying? Who is really the bully here and who is really the object of bullying? littlebee

Last edited by littlebee on 11 Mar 2014, 11:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

this message is edited with new comments at the end....

Re this post, this was just the beginning. I ran out of steam and intended to continue, but people's responses were so strong I got side-tracked into responding to those posts. I guess I will comment on my own post in the below. I will break it up into sections, and if any moderators object just contact me and I will remove this. I also would like to add to KingdomOfRats, K-O-R-- that I admire your posts and ,as you well know, I have written at least two and maybe more message in the past calling attn to your posts and saying how much I admire them, and these are the only responses previous to this thread I have ever made to you. Also, my intent was never to discount any of the experience you have had here or anywhere else. So, commenting on my own post:



I should have made this more clear, but I myself am one of these people. In the past I did not have this feeling, but very recently I have felt some ideas and questions come up, that I was afraid to communicate and still very much am. though before recently I never had anything to communicate past the two or three messages I did write praising your style of active thinking. This is edited to add that a lot of my fear was not so much about yoiur response but about other people's responses.

In any case--- case in point. The over-protective response of various people illustrates the very point I am making, whereas your own response has an impartial quality to it which I very much admire, even though you are not siding with me, which is fine, as I am speaking my own truth and also am open to enquiry about whether what I am thinking is true is actually true or not.

Will continue this in a few minutes as I have to make a phone call....and maybe eat....

Edited to add, I have just eaten something but feel I cannot work anymore on this message right now if ever....but will try to make another message finishing this later or if not today in the next day or two....

Actually I just reread my message and found this which I forgot I wrote and would like to comment on:
In all honesty I have though many times about how much suffering LFA's such as the teenagers from Best Kept Secret and also the young people at the Judge Rottenberg Center are experiencing and have suffered myself because of it, regardless that some people seem to think I am callous, so I do not know where I was coming from at the time that I wrote this the other day, and in this case maybe I did fit things together in this way because of my own autism, but I just spotted it now. I think when I wrote that my mind was not associating the term LFA (which is pretty new to me and I only came to understand very recently) with these other people, though obviously it refers to them. I can honestly say, though, that I am not wrapped up in thinking about this. The second commen that even if anyone is wrapped up in thinking this, I am not sure how significant it is---by this I meant not that the suffering is not significant but that it is not significant if anyone is wrapped up in thinking about it in terms of the point you were making, K-O-R, about not being in misery.. Imo the suffering itself that other people are experiencing is profoundly significant. I am not sure how clear I am making this....littlebee....

Last edited by littlebee on 12 Mar 2014, 12:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

This read, what a huge mess LOL.

Agree with everything except I wouldn't put Lorna Wing on a pedestal...

Not to me, but maybe because I was participating. Did your own brain ever change from reading something and thinking about something? Of course a person, any person, needs to choose material that is interesting and engaging to himself. Then studying it and thinking about it, even if it is difficult, will be worthwhile, even joyful, especially if ones own development of understanding is not just for the sake of oneself but also for the sake of others. In fact one group of people I studied with call this kind of activity "joyful effort."

That's no pedestal. Just acknowledging that she's an expert. This has been her career for decades. Btbnnyr being the other mention, autism is her area of study. As much as I study, I'm not going to know as much as either of them because I am not in a position to do the research, to access the existing research papers, etc. That's all I was saying.

In comparison, medical professionals who do not specialize in autism really do not know much about it, including therapists and psychiatrists. It's not hard to exceed their knowledge level because that simply is not their focus.

I hope that made sense.

Also, btw: Why do you say that about Lorna Wing?

agreed,she runs a service in the UK thats specialises in diagnosing complex autism and she did have a profoundly autistic daughter which spurred her on to creating the UKs national autistic society [unfortunately her daughter died as an adult from her obsessive water drinking which made her blood watery],she deserves to be on a bloody big pedastal in own view though am open to hearing conflicting reviews.

have heard all the stuff about simon baron cohen,he just seems like a one trick guy whose never really got anywhere with it.

Yeah, I actually do think Lorna Wing is deserving of a lot of praise for her work. It just seemed to me pointing out she knows more about autism than i do was not placing her on a pedestal.



I find his work frustrating to read. Science of Evil doesn't strike me as particularly rigorous, and I still don't quite see what he was trying to get at. Given that it was about autism and cluster B personality disorders, and both of these things are definite interests of mine, I probably shouldn't finish reading it trying to figure out just what the author's point was. I can read Linehan, Millon, etc about borderline PD or Hervey Cleckley or Robert Hare about psychopathy and Cleckley's work especially is particularly dated and in many ways inaccurate.

I just wish it would go away. I've been battling this accursed malignant mental cancer my whole life and it has never given me anything positive that others could not get with a similar amount of effort.

I don't consider it a boon or a different way of thinking. I consider it a millstone around my inherent mental acuity. It drags me down.

Ok what have I done to you that makes you understand why other people might pick on me ?




I believe this is inappropriate considering I did not do or say anything to provoke you.

After looking up the definition of sh*t shoveling this is what I found.

1. A person that you send to do all of your dirty work, or someone that takes responsibility for whatever mess you've gotten yourself into (i.e. a scapegoat).

2. That person, usually a girl that scurrys around picking up little pieces of conversation and spreading s**t about people that they picked up by eavesdropping on other peoples conversations.

To me this looks like bullying

Which one are you accusing me of if it's the first definition.


Why are you blaming me for posts that I had nothing to do with? I have no control over their responses and did not do anything to you expect sharing my feelings saying that your posts hurt peoples feelings and makes them feel unwelcome or that their posts and feelings are worthless stupid, or wrong and if you make me feel that way it's all my fault. And that if I tell you how feel I'm liying and just trying to make you look bad.

If it it the second , besides your first post to KOR I was referring to things you posted on my own threads or threads I had something to do with.

Mmmm, not exactly a real vet, only coming up on two years this summer, but been here long enough to have some thoughts on your points.

1 - "we're so special, we're so rational, we're so intelligent" and "those stupid, annoying, social-driven nt's" and "we're a special evolutional advantage, the next step"

I think these type views are fairly uncommon. Perhaps you stumbled on a odd batch in a short time. If anything I would say most do not see our condition as an advantage or superior, but instead the opposite, as handicaps in the world at large.

2- "it's everyone's fault I am feeling lonely and depressed. I spend all day playing in the computer and never try to get out of my room or get out of my comfort zone, and I expect everyone to adjust to myself and my behavior... But, well, friends and opportunities are supposed to fall in my lap"

I agree that there is quite a bit of this and similar complaints, and it can get depressing. If it was a forum of the general populace it would be very hard to accept, but being for autistics is more understandable. People come to forums for different reasons, but in this case a larger amount are going to be ones struggling in society and seeking help and connection with similar others. Quite a few are desperate. They are all at different points in self-understanding and awareness, and often damaged emotionally. Overall rules or expecting typical behaviors doesn't work well in this situation. People have to make progress on very individual tracks.

3 - and all those very repetitive theories and ideas that we discuss in a topic one day and in the next there are 3 more equal topics popping up.

I don't know for sure how different this is from typical forums, but I have noticed some evidence (minor-moderate) of some threads reflecting autistic or co-morbid tendencies. That would be things like repetitiveness, compulsiveness, obsessing, etc. If that's true, it is kind of normal for us.

Hey Jen. This thread has become a hot spot, and I think it needs to cool down, plus I am not going to get into it any further with a fifteen year old, for my own sake, as well as for yours. I will give the W person kudos for understanding you a whole lot better than I do or did, and I am answering this message in an attempt to tone things done and reach some form of closure.

I am extremely disheartened and disappointed after reading what you wrote on this board about me yesterday, and I am surprised to hear from you any further as it seems we have reached a communication impasse. You have it all figured out that I am a bully and that you are going to be a savior and save other poor autistics like yourself whom I am tormenting. Well go to it.

My comments inserted in the quote box are in italics.

Maybe I will write something else on some other thread in the future, as you asked some questions which I have not yet had a chance to respond to, plus you made a comment I would like to respond to at some point about your family thinking it is unwholesome for you to participate on these kind of autism venue, but that material is too charged for right now. And I have been planning for some time to make a thread about certain aspects of the bullying phenomena, but do not have time to do it right now. In the meantime you have other people to communicate with who think you are very awesome. Is this saying I do not think you are awesome. Does this mean I do not find you awesome? I will let you and others put their own spin on this. I think you are an intelligent young person, inherently a good human being, with some good qualities but some other maybe not so good qualities who has suffered a lot and is caught in a maze of confusion and trying to sort things out, and the way I see it, not getting too much help with that, which is tragic. Maybe you have come to the right place to get that help...or the wrong place, depending upon what you do with it. You do have a strong altruistic motivation, the development of which imo is the way out of your personal suffering, but imo this autism activism bent is not helpful for a teenager, especially in your particular case and though it may superficially appear to enhance the altrusitic motivation, I think in actuality it is not really doing that, but is a kind of shimmer, an illusion, as such a motivation needs to be consciously interconnected with ALL people, and not just a special group. (This is in no way to devalue the necessity and efficacy of certain kinds of activism or of one group of people who is being persecuted standing up for their rights.

So sorry about this suffering. I have gone through it, too, and sometimes still am, and in the past it was very horrible and I saw no way out, though I do not know if my suffering was to the same degree as yours.

I think the key word here in what you wrote, is "inherent"(mental acuity), and also, there may be a potential to reap more benefit from your particular situation than most of these other people. Some people just have it basically kind of easy. As many people here know, I am interested in religion. In one of the religions I studied, a school of Mahayana Buddhism, people who have it very easy (and I have known several people like this though they are somewhat rare) are referred as "devas." I would not say this applies to all or even most NT people. Anyway, everyone always likes these people--they seem to never have much difficulty-- everything goes very easy. I have had two or three people like this as roommates and it was kind of blessing from one point of view as living with them went very easy because for me and anyone they were around everything clicked into place, so there was never much if any conflict. However, from the perspective of this one particular school of Mahayana Buddhism, being born a deva would not be an advantageous position to be in because these devas do not have enough of a degree of personal suffering to transform into what is called the great, unconventional compassion for the sake of putting a salve on the horrible suffering of sentient creatures. Of course these devas are suffering, too, but it is mainly subliminal and not at all overt, so there is not much of an opportunity to affect their own inner transformation.

I think I might have a further comment to make later, as I find some of the contrasts in your message between light and heaviness kind of interesting.

For the sake of argument let's say a self-diagnosed aspie did have as much access to resources and the same resources as an autism specialist and had the motivation to spend time reading through them I still don't think they could make as good a diagnosis as a specialist in autism because:

1) The specialist has years of formal education in how to read critically and understand the literature. for example training in physical sciences and genetics so they'd understand genetics research, training in neuro-science so they understand the brain at different levels and training in social issues ect. ect. This education isn't the be all and end all and educated people CAN still make mistakes in understanding and interpreting the info and not everyone's education is this thorough but it often is and I think the education does have some worth and would make a professional more skilled at analysing the data and info than the average joe on the internet.

2) The specialist has years of clinical experience working with people with the disorder. That doesn't make them infallible by any means but it is worth something, IMO.

3) The specialist has MORE objectivity in diagnosing someone than that person does in diagnosing themselves. This is why doctors and specialists don't diagnose themselves with whatever they specialize in. They aren't supposed to. My grandpa was a doctor and that is a big no-no in the medical community. Doctors go see other doctors with their suspicions and concerns to be diagnosed and treated. The specialist's diagnosis is not entirely objective, no one can be completely objective about anything but it's much more objective than someone's own assessment of themselves.

Also the combination of these three factors is important, IMO.

btbnnyr- I like your egg and merry berry words. At first I found them distracting when trying to read your posts because I'd picture eggs and berries whenever I saw them. I'm not even a picture thinker but I did. Now I'm used to it and they don't distract me.