First time in history!! !! The NT/AS open hotline ! !! !! !

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That can get complicated and, as another poster pointed out, it can have something to do with relative "rankings."

The simplified answer, based on what I've seen with my son, is that the AS may not be reading the aggression right: they may be seeing more from the other person than is there, and responding with more than they are aware of. My son goes from 0 to 60 in a manner of speaking in a blink of an eye when it comes to aggressive behavior and no matter how much we discuss it he just doesn't see the gradations that might be involved. Aggression can occur at sorts of levels, from mild to strong, say 1 to 10 on a scale. But he rarely responds with anything but a 1 or a 10, metaphorically speaking. A 4 response requires a level of control he doesn't seem to have. If 1 doesn't work, and at least he will try a level 1 repsonse first, we've gotten that far, he jumps right up to 9 or 10.

The effective response to aggression, btw, is usually firm resistance, but not aggression. My husband can have trouble with firm resistance, too; when its called for, he'll usually leave it to me, assuming I'm involved in the situation.

I don't have a good answer on this one, so I'll leave it to others. But do be aware, when it comes to men, that many of them have trouble reading signals from women as well, so the error may not be yours - it may be theirs. The whole Mars/Venus thing, you know. No one is imune.

Usually with me it's not the aggression that I act against. What can happen is someone says something that hurts me and I feel like I "lose" if I'm not allowed to let them know how much they upset me. I want them to know they don't have permission to talk down to me or insult me. I don't really care about silly social rankings. F*** that. If someone hurts me I get obsessed with bringing them down off their pedestal. I hate feeling inferior.

I think I know the answer to my question, but I'm hoping for more NTs to post their comments...

One for the NTs:

Why is it that certain members of a group, presumably the dominant ones, are allowed to act the as*hole, and when you stand up to them you're accused of being aggressive or lacking a sense of humour??

I don't know how to answer your question. I can't get a mental image of what you are referring to.

Hi, Greentea. Well, here's another NT opinion for you, but I don't know how useful it'll be... Actually, I think that Willmark and DW have already covered most of what I'd say in answer to your question. It really depends on the precise situation, but the "aggressive" responses you mention could variously represent bullying, overt aggression, attempts to enforce social rankings or just plain assertiveness or bluntness. Also, some people are just naturally a lot more direct than others, and what is acceptable from them may sound harsh coming from someone else. Often in these sorts of situations, the actual WORDS that are used may not matter so much as the tone of voice and body language that accompany them, especially for females, who tend to be fairly subtle in their expression of aggression (because it's not considered "feminine" behaviour.)

Also, sometimes people may speak harshly because they're stressed or upset- this may be tolerated by most NTs because they can sense that the rudeness isn't directed personally at them, but if you're not aware of these emotional undercurrents, you may misinterpret their actions as an attack. If others present seem to support the apparent aggressor, either you've got group bullying going on or else your response has been seen as inappropriate, suggesting that you've misread the situation.

I realise this may not be awfully helpful- as usual for these sorts of social interaction-based queries, the answer really is, "Well, it depends......" Jenny

Maybe examples will make clearer what I mean:

A woman was blocking the exit from the parking lot and wouldn't move. I waited a bit, then honked her. Passers-by got pissed at me.

The nurse at the hospital talked to me in a hostile tone. When I answered in the same hostile tone, she started yelling at me. When I yelled exactly the same as her, the rest of the nurses sided with her, of course, and I got chorus yelling, needless to say.

A woman kept pushing her cart into my body at the supermarket. When I asked her to stop, the man who was paying at the moment admonished me on her behalf.

First of all, was she in a car or standing? Pedestrians always have the right of way. Secondly, while she was blocking YOU, she wasn't blocking THEM, and so they had no reason to see her as rude. The honking, however, DID affect them. They were probably wondering why you couldn't either be more patient or handle the incident in a way less disturbing to the third parties.



You may have misread her tone, or this may be the power structure thing. She was in charge, trying to get a job done. The others, being part of her "team," sided with her. I would have found the situation frustrating, but I wouldn't have let it escalate; like I said when I posted earlier, I've found returning rudeness to be ineffective. If you had answered back in a more polite tone, it most likely would have taken the edge off of her and calmed her; for some reason it sounds like she went into the encounter stressed and you got the brunt of it.



Was the man with her? That would make a difference. Otherwise, I would suggest that her error was again, non-public, only offending you, while your statement was public, bringing everyone around you into the disagreement. If something like that were to happen to me, I would put my hand firmly on the cart and hold it at bay. Non-verbal response to a non-verbal problem.

Oh, I see! Thank you, DW ! !! !! I had never thought of that!

Like when a member of a group behaves really abrasively and when you complain, you hear 'Oh get a sense of humour' or 'Take the rod out of your ass.'

Whereas I am fairly sure that if I bothered other people like that they wouldn't be so accepting.

Here is a rule of thumb that I have learned to follow. 99.99999999999999999% of the time, when a person is acting rude, or abrasive in my presence, their behavior is not about me. I just happened to be standing in the wrong place at the wrong time when they lost it. The fact that I got hit with the fall out of the incident was pure coincidence. However if I respond in kind, that changes things and it then becomes about me. It works out better for me if I refuse to take it personally, and show the exploding person some consideration. I would not be surprised if many NTs have taken offense when an Aspie had a meltdown in their presence. Aspies and Auties don't have a corner on experiencing meltdowns by the way.

As for the person blocking the exit to a parking lot, I would want to know why she was blocking it, and is there something I can do to help her not block it. Most often, when an exit is blocked, I will simply drive to another exit, unless that exit is the only way out. But I too can become impatient with seemingly useless impasses, but most of those don't really exist. When someone is blocking traffic there is usually a not so obvious reason for the person's behavior.

I'm not NT but I think I know the answer. I think acting abrasively to other members of a group is a humorous to some but I always thought it was more of a guy thing. Most guys appreciate people who are able to have a self-deprecating sense of humor. Being able to accept jokes at your own expense is seen as a sign of bonding/closeness because someone wouldn't normally joke about someone they don't feel close to. Therefore someone being too sensitive causes a lack of closeness and a feelign of uneasiness for the rest of the group.

On the other hand you could just be dealing with nasty people and you should just not bother with them. This is especially true if the group aren't really true friends. Then they have no right to be so insensitive and are just acting like a clique of bullies.

I think people who were abused, or bullied growing up may have difficulty accepting any kind of self-deprecation as humorous, even when it was intended to be so, or at least I go through this. To me, self deprecation is a behavior that a person with low self esteem naturally expresses, and I have trouble finding that humorous. There are exceptions of course, like some of the absent minded things that I do sometimes can be really funny, depending upon the impact.

Ok...I have three questions for the NTs (And I don't mind fellow autistics input here as well). I do a music ministry on dulcimers, harmonica, and organ. I travel around to different area churches. This weekend, I am booked at a church where the minister will be absent. He booked me because his church is interested in autism, and he wants me to talk to the congregation some during the ministry about autism in my life. I told him on the phone that I was diagnosed with Asperger's, which is basically considered as a type of high functioning autism. Since his church is interested in autism, he should be educated on it. At the end of the phone conversation, he said, "before church, you should stand next to the entry door and greet people as they enter and introduce yourself." I'm thinking---WHAT!! ! Does he know what autism is? I can't comfortably do that. I'm get anxiety already. I usually sit by myself and out of the way and then do my ministry after being introduced. Talking in front of the congregations is awkward enough as it is.

Ok...for the questions...Would you NTs find it offensive if you had an autistic presenter that was not greeting you at the door? And, what is this minister thinking by expecting me to do this? Should I get in touch with him to tell him I can't comfortably greet people like that? I am so awkward that I didn't even discuss my concerns about this with him when we were talking earlier---I usually have to script out stuff. My ministry is scripted out beforehand. I don't do chit chat well at all.

MechanicGirl, in these situations you are referring to, are they being abrassive specifically TO you or just in general, making you feel embarassed to be seen with them?